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Author True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Roger the Cat

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 00:27:55
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Not quite mining, but energy related and therefore I hope of interest.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/10122850/True-cost-of-Britains-wind-farm-industry-revealed.html
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Morlock

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 01:45:51
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All engineering types knew wind was the wrong engergy source anyway, public just got carried by the green bullshit brigade. Cursing

Pity they didn't put the same effort into the Severn Barrage with a bit of extra pumped storage capacity!
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Cuban Bloodhound

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 08:18:35
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To think they shut down mines as they claimed they were uneconomical and required too much subsidies, yet they're happy to throw money at these. IP: 86.31.229.139
RJV

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 09:48:59
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Lies, lies and more lies....

I'd no more trust an anti-article in the Telegraph than I would a pro-article in the Guardian...
It's hard to know where to stand on the matter given the bollocks provided by both sides; misunderstood or invented 'facts' bent to support plainly pre-determined points-of-view.
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Ty Gwyn

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 09:52:55
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Cuban Bloodhound wrote:

To think they shut down mines as they claimed they were uneconomical and required too much subsidies, yet they're happy to throw money at these.


If that was`nt bad enough,they greatly subsidise Drax to go 50% bio fuel,buy building processing plants in America, to ship in wood chips from Georgia/North Carolina.

Carbon reduction my arse.
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miner1985

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 10:19:44
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Carbon reduction my arse.

That would be methane reduction Ty Gwyn!!


Agree the lunatics are now running the asylum. Sat on years of coal and we put up useless and ugly windfarms. Someone is getting a massive backhander!!! IP: 86.153.152.30
AR

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 10:29:33
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RJV wrote:

Lies, lies and more lies....

I'd no more trust an anti-article in the Telegraph than I would a pro-article in the Guardian...
It's hard to know where to stand on the matter given the bollocks provided by both sides; misunderstood or invented 'facts' bent to support plainly pre-determined points-of-view.


The one paper I would recommend is the one the John Muir trust did some years ago looking at the actual output of windfarms as compared to the output figures given on planning applications. The significant mismatch they found left me with the overriding impression that they are actually subsidy farms.....

That reminds me, I need to go and look at Carsington Pasture and see if they've done any more on the one there, or realised that trying to build 50m high structures on extremely holey dolomite won't work!

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I want you to kill Nicholas Parsons, and I want you to make it clean. But if you can't make it clean, make it messy. If you can't make it messy, make it noisy. And if you can't make it noisy, make it silly!
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Ty Gwyn

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 10:51:51
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Wind Turbine`s have had their day,even Cameron is starting to cut the subsides,the penny has dropped with these clowns in power,we are heading into the Dark Ages,

This subsidy money will now be funneled into Fracking,the new saviour for energy.

The Green`s bois bach,have turned a shade of mildew.
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exspelio

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 13:04:53
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The Telegraph is notorious for misplacing the decimal point, any article in there quoting figures should be taken with a pinch of salt.

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Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.
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eastkern

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 16:22:49
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It's not just wind farms, people installing photovoltaic panels aren't seeing the savings they were promised and the latest developments suggest that in a few years you will be able to generate four times the energy from panels 50% smaller than they are now.
This is the best independent site that I've found in the UK on the relative costs of all energy sources based on kWh. http://www.confusedaboutenergy.co.uk/index.php/domestic-fuels/fuel-prices#.Ub3Wk2t5mK1
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ChrisJC

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 16:26:28
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The financial burden is only of secondary importance.
The key point that is missed by nearly everybody is the energy required to manufacture / maintain / decommission a wind turbine, vs the energy it generates.
Clearly it needs to generate more than it requires throughout its lifecycle, however, I have never seen figures.
Imagine if it used more than it generated.....

Chris.
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Morlock

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 17:17:40
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ChrisJC wrote:

Clearly it needs to generate more than it requires throughout its lifecycle, however, I have never seen figures.
Imagine if it used more than it generated.....

Chris.


I cannot find the relevant document at the moment but it does not leave much to the imagination. Big Grin
They are a net loss and a waste of resources.
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RJV

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 18:08:29
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That's an argument that is used often on the internet but doesn't seem to be deemed relevant by some experts.

See the following two anti-windfarm reports, the second is the one to which A_R refers above:
http://www.thegwpf.org/images/stories/gwpf-reports/hughes-windpower.pdf
http://www.jmt.org/assets/report_analysis%20uk%20wind_syoung.pdf

Whilst there doesn't appear to be much in the way of quantifiable evidence available pertaining to the cost of producing wind turbines, the same in fairness can also be said for the cost of producing conventional power stations.
IP: 86.14.202.171 Edited: 16/06/2013 18:12:05 by RJV
Morrisman

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 18:24:32
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Anyone seen the latest on green energy taking place in Plymouth. The report is that to supplement wind and solar power, for when it don't blow or shine. The plan is to install 500 diesel generators at the ex Toshiba factory site! Now that is what I really call "green" energy Cursing Cursing IP: 2.31.90.15
lozz

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 20:02:30
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Morrisman wrote:

Anyone seen the latest on green energy taking place in Plymouth. The report is that to supplement wind and solar power, for when it don't blow or shine. The plan is to install 500 diesel generators at the ex Toshiba factory site! Now that is what I really call "green" energy Cursing Cursing


Hmm, no engineering types here then..... 500 generators in the old Toshiba factory at Plymouth to generate the proposed 20 Mw, that equates to 40Kw per generator...not a lot is it.
On the other hand up to 52 generators to produce the same power is now getting a bit more efficient, I suspect that in the end that the number of generators employed will be less than the 52 that was quoted in the media.

Clearly they didn't build the new Langage gas powered station at Plymouth big enough.

The base problem that the grid has always faced and will continue to face is one of peak demand.
Nuclear for instance can provide the base generation to feed a constant load no problem, the problem arises when the daily peak load demands or short term weather related load demands occur, nuclear power stations are not fast in reacting to a sudden increase in demand so we need something else, it has to be fast to come on stream to meet the power deficit ie: within minutes.
As far as I am aware pumped storage hydro is about the quickest to respond followed gas, diesel etc.

Like it or not wind power is here, not by accident, not to be overlooked is our nations commitment to reduce (not eliminate) our carbon emissions by X % by a certain date, the time span is relatively short, to short to knock up a few more nuclear power stations, to short to get the coal industry back up and running and burning clean so what are we left with, gas, solar, wind, diesel, hydro so it can be seen that solar and wind energy can play a part, you can argue the cost all day long quoting from this source and that source, it's irelavent, it's about as relavent as the price of petrol, folks need there cars and still find the money to put petrol in them, folks need electricity and will find the money to pay for it.
On the plus side, expensive electricity/energy can makes us think and do something about it like use less by making our lives more energy efficient which in turn can help reduce emissions.

Solar and wind energy is intermittant (some observers still don't get that....) put the power is real.

Emissions are real, ask any scientist, our atmosphere is heating up, no doubt about that, something has to be done, so that begs the question are we prepared to pay the monetary price or are we prepared to pay some other price.

Some of the comments so far beggar belief which is not suprising from a media report, when I was a lad newspaper was to wipe yer arse on if yer ran out of doc leaves.

Lozz.
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gNick

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 20:44:59
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One engineering type now here.

Never investigated the economics of wind farms, though there was a thing on Look North the other night that stated that the North East and Cumbria are, because of the wind farms, carbon neutral. Northumberland apparently generates something like 3 times its usage.
I have no way of backing up these figures of course.

People get very Nimby about wind farms, understandably in some cases. Personally I quite like them and certainly don't consider them ugly and much nicer to look at than some other power generation methods.

My company did do some research work in tidal flow generation a few years ago and I think we came up with the figures that if all the decent tidal flow sites in the UK (only 6 or so) were getting all the available energy then they would only generate a quarter of Drax. Bearing in mind there is no way to get anywhere near all of the energy...
The tidal and wave systems are very good at generating subsidies and paying consultants but don't seem to be very good at generating significant electricity.

The outcome of several million quids worth of work was that the best way to deal with the energy crisis is to use substantially less energy. Not helpful but unfortunately in the absence of a low pollution high return energy source such as fusion probably the best solution.

Don't get me started on bio-fuels... Cursing

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wheldale

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 21:02:38
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I was reading a post by an American this week, Jo Bastardi, he is a global warming sceptic and a meteorologist. He was saying that the earth is now in a 30 year cooling cycle but also he was saying is that the world produces 186 billion tonnes of co2 a year. Only 6 billions tonnes are from human factors, the rest comes from volcanoes and oceans. He also went on to say that in some area's of the world plant life is booming because of the co2.

There's lots of interesting facts out there that show wind farms are a waste of money.
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gNick

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 21:12:35
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Facts or opinions?

Very few things are clear. And I am very sceptical about strong feelings - especially if statistics are involved!




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So help me Mrs Medlicott, I don't know what to do, I've only got three bullets and there's four in Motley Crue
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lozz

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 21:23:28
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gNick wrote:

One engineering type now here.

Never investigated the economics of wind farms, though there was a thing on Look North the other night that stated that the North East and Cumbria are, because of the wind farms, carbon neutral. Northumberland apparently generates something like 3 times its usage.
I have no way of backing up these figures of course.

People get very Nimby about wind farms, understandably in some cases. Personally I quite like them and certainly don't consider them ugly and much nicer to look at than some other power generation methods.

My company did do some research work in tidal flow generation a few years ago and I think we came up with the figures that if all the decent tidal flow sites in the UK (only 6 or so) were getting all the available energy then they would only generate a quarter of Drax. Bearing in mind there is no way to get anywhere near all of the energy...
The tidal and wave systems are very good at generating subsidies and paying consultants but don't seem to be very good at generating significant electricity.

The outcome of several million quids worth of work was that the best way to deal with the energy crisis is to use substantially less energy. Not helpful but unfortunately in the absence of a low pollution high return energy source such as fusion probably the best solution.

Don't get me started on bio-fuels... Cursing


Good to hear, engineering that is.
As you suggest there is a bottom line, we move forward with the times and technology or we cease to be much about nothing.

The last time I did a bit of research on wind turbines it seamed to suggest that the energy used in their construction had a short pay back time, as said earlier we can argue all day about the economics/tarrifs/subsidies etc, you could argue the economics/subsidies of the UK coal industry and many other industries as a whole but I'm guessing we would be going round in circles maybe.

The national grid/power generation is at a crossroads, I would argue that this point is now as profound to us as was Tesla et al in their day.
Technology is advancing fast, HVDC technology is proven also in the wings are smart meters, smart appliances, super capacitors, graphene etc all these things can revolutionise the power industry both in generating terms and as consumers, if we don't do it then someone else will for sure.

Yeah bio fuels, the latest media guff was that they are chopping down half the forests on the Eastern Seaboard and shipping it over here just to feed Drax, we have tons of the stuff here that never gets used, why? no infrastructure, it's historical, HMG thought it was always a hippy idea and should be dismissed as such.

A few years ago we were lighting our houses with incandescant bulbs, now you can light your house with a 12 volt low voltage system at a much lower cost per unit, who'd have thought it.

I get real hacked off by folks that see fit to condemn things that they clearly don't understand and prefer the press barons to do their misguided thinking for them, sheep I calls them, bleat bleat bleat.
What this country needs is movers not moaners.

Lozz.
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wheldale

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True Cost of Britain's Wind Farm Industry Revealed
Posted: 16/06/2013 21:26:47
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I agree! Lots of facts, opinions and stats that can all be twisted. I'm a sceptic myself on climate change. IP: 2.221.176.27
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