Mine exploration, photographs and mining history for mine explorers, industrial archaeologists, researchers and historians Mine explorer and mining history videos on YouTube Connect with other mine explorers on Facebook
Tip: do not include 'mine' or 'quarry', search by name e.g. 'cwmorthin', use 'Sounds like search' if unsure of spelling

Advanced Search
'Sounds like search'
Quick a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
Tip: narrow down your search by typing more than one word and selecting 'Search for all words' or 'Exact search'

Search for any word
Search for all words
Exact search
Tip: narrow down your search by typing more than one word and selecting 'Search for all words' or 'Exact search'

Search for any word
Search for all words
Exact search

Mine Exploration Forum

Jump to page << < 1 2 3 4 5 > >>
Author Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Aditaddict

Joined: 27/08/2010

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 17:55:29
Reply |  Quote
Just breaking on the news they are now looking into why the 90 some miners charged , had their statements altered / dictated etc
and that yet again the same police force that lied about Hillsborough are center stage for this one
nice to see mining hitting the headlines again but for all the wrong reasons
lets hope that this opens up the whole can of worms and All the truth comes out about what really went on
IP: 81.109.225.134 Edited: 22/10/2012 18:34:40 by Aditaddict
ChrisJC

Avatar of ChrisJC

Joined: 13/10/2007
Location: Northants

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 20:04:08
Reply |  Quote
Aditaddict wrote:

Just breaking on the news they are now looking into why the 90 some miners charged , had their statements altered / dictated etc
and that yet again the same police force that lied about Hillsborough are center stage for this one
nice to see mining hitting the headlines again but for all the wrong reasons
lets hope that this opens up the whole can of worms and All the truth comes out about what really went on


And what will that achieve?

Chris.
IP: 109.148.185.87
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 20:25:48
Reply |  Quote
How about a more accurate view of the historical record? As mine historians that's something we should all approve of. It should be the historian's job to record a factual record as best we can, and if it takes an official enquiry to achieve that, then so be it. Perhaps, just as the romantic view some have of jolly miners singing songs and eating pasties is not strictly accurate, we should make sure that those that come after us do not get misled into believing that all coal miners from the 1980s were irresponsible thugs.

--

Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
IP: 92.10.165.1 Edited: 22/10/2012 20:26:56 by Peter Burgess
Aditaddict

Joined: 27/08/2010

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 20:33:43
Reply |  Quote
ChrisJC wrote:

Aditaddict wrote:

Just breaking on the news they are now looking into why the 90 some miners charged , had their statements altered / dictated etc
and that yet again the same police force that lied about Hillsborough are center stage for this one
nice to see mining hitting the headlines again but for all the wrong reasons
lets hope that this opens up the whole can of worms and All the truth comes out about what really went on


And what will that achieve?

Chris.
The Truth !
IP: 81.109.225.134
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 20:37:56
Reply |  Quote
Absolutely. What I said. Why use 95 words when 2 will do?

--

Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
IP: 92.10.165.1
RJV

Avatar of RJV

Joined: 16/03/2008
Location: Cleveland

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 21:07:38
Reply |  Quote
Aditaddict wrote:

The Truth!


For the benefit of those of us who don't know the finer details of the story, what do they hope to gain by going over it again?

Whilst Peter's comment is a valid one I very much doubt that the historical record is the reason behind it rearing its head again.

--

'Planning is just bad adventure.'
IP: 86.14.202.171
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 21:19:47
Reply |  Quote
A person's reputation is a very precious thing. If your reputation had been besmirched for political reasons, then exhonoration is the very least you should be entitled to. The phrase "truth will out" is coming home on a number of fronts. I don't really mind what the motive is for this happening, provided it is done constructively.

--

Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
IP: 92.10.165.1
Tamarmole

Joined: 20/05/2009
Location: Tamar Valley

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 21:20:10
Reply |  Quote
RJV wrote:

Aditaddict wrote:

The Truth!


For the benefit of those of us who don't know the finer details of the story, what do they hope to gain by going over it again?

Whilst Peter's comment is a valid one I very much doubt that the historical record is the reason behind it rearing its head again.


Justice?
IP: 86.129.225.248
Ty Gwyn

Joined: 30/10/2009
Location: Lampeter

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 21:25:17
Reply |  Quote
To prove it was a fit up ,by the Police and the Government,

Thats enough reason to bring the truth out.
IP: 86.170.192.34
Aditaddict

Joined: 27/08/2010

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 21:54:39
Reply |  Quote
There was a lot of things rumoured at the time such as the military dressed as police officers
police officers driving past picket lines goading miners by waving wads of cash at striking miners , brutal beatings of pickets , what roll government ministers of the time had in this and exactly what (if any ) unofficial powers were granted to said "police officers" , and many more questions that need to be answered on the deliberate destruction of one of our greatest industries, which in turn led to the demise of power , railways ,and steel
IP: 81.109.225.134
rikj

Avatar of rikj

Joined: 27/12/2008

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 21:57:27
Reply |  Quote
It has come up again because of Hillsborough. The contention is that similar practices happened on both occasions i.e senior police officers effectively dictating what officers should put in their statements.

All 93 pickets arrested on the day were acquitted. From BBC Yorkshire:

"There was no miscarriage of justice - the Orgreave miners were all acquitted. But no action was ever taken against the police.

There's a suggestion if it had, the culture of cover-up that existed in 1989 could have been dealt with long before disaster unfolded at Hillsborough"


--

'If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?'
IP: 31.53.143.133 Edited: 22/10/2012 22:01:57 by rikj
Roy Morton

Avatar of Roy Morton

Joined: 09/10/2007
Location: Redruth Cornwall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 22/10/2012 22:23:02
Reply |  Quote
I'm with Peter on this one. Too many times history has been wrongly recorded or covered up, and then at some future date has had to be re-written.
If only for the sake of history, the record needs to be put straight however, in this case many of the people involved are still alive and as has been rightly pointed out, personal reputation, a valuable commodity, has been besmirched by the very people we pay to uphold all that is decent.
Yes...someone should get the rocket, but I don't think it will go any higher than a chief constable at best, after that the culpability firewalls are pretty impregnable. Cursing

--

'Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear'
IP: 86.152.102.158
pwhole

Avatar of pwhole

Joined: 22/02/2011
Location: Sheffield and the Peak District

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 00:09:11
Reply |  Quote
I'm not surprised in the least that this is following on from Hillsborough. Coming from Rotherham/Sheffield, this has always been bubbling under the surface, and the fractured relationship between the public and the police here has never really healed - there was so much distrust and resentment embedded in the situation after Orgreave, that it would always take decades to fix, even with an inquiry.
Orgreave seemed then to be a quasi-military operation designed to break the NUM once and for all, and the rumours that it was supported by actual military personnel bussed-in and shoved out into the fray with no real ID have never gone away.

Scargill and co, whether you agreed with their methods or not, were seen as a major threat to the stability of the nation, and it appeared during Orgreave that most options of quelling public disturbance would be considered, and indeed implemented, short of actually shooting the strikers. A friend of mine was driving on the Parkway that day. and was held up by traffic cops whilst a pitched battle went across the entire carrigeway. He said it was like a medieval battle...
IP: 81.174.241.13
Aditaddict

Joined: 27/08/2010

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 00:22:40
Reply |  Quote
"He said it was like a medieval battle..." For me i think it was the closest think we had had to a civil war for centuries
it divided the country on opinions, it split families and communities it even split the very union fighting for the rights of the miners and as the years have passed a lot of these issues have not and possibly will not ever be resolved
IP: 81.109.225.134
ChrisJC

Avatar of ChrisJC

Joined: 13/10/2007
Location: Northants

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 08:04:16
Reply |  Quote
I fear it's such a politically charged scenario that the truth will never emerge. Every interpretation will be villified by at least one group. Reopening old wounds simply prolongs the agony.

The English-Welsh wound as opened by King Edward I 700 has never healed; it is continually prised, probed and opened further for political ends.

The history of conflict becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Sometimes I think it would be better to burn all the history books and start again. We might forget lessons from history, but we'd also forget the hatred.

Chris.
IP: 81.137.22.162
Trewillan

Joined: 21/02/2012

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 09:37:13
Reply |  Quote
Just to be even-handed, do we also get an inquiry into the conduct of the NUM?
IP: 87.113.227.129
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 10:14:01
Reply |  Quote
Absolutely - provided it can be shown that the NUM falsified statements in order to get individuals put into prison for crimes that were not committed. Hmmmm.......

--

Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
IP: 94.193.19.239
Trewillan

Joined: 21/02/2012

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 10:50:39
Reply |  Quote
Peter Burgess wrote:

Absolutely - provided it can be shown that the NUM falsified statements in order to get individuals put into prison for crimes that were not committed. Hmmmm.......


And how "peaceful picketing" turned into a riot? And what exactly happened to the money from Libya and Russia? etc, etc.

Hmmm...
IP: 87.113.227.129
derrickman

Avatar of derrickman

Joined: 18/02/2009

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 11:33:23
Reply |  Quote
Peter Burgess wrote:

Absolutely - provided it can be shown that the NUM falsified statements in order to get individuals put into prison for crimes that were not committed. Hmmmm.......


frankly, it would be my suggestion that people with no first-hand knowledge of the affair might usefully keep their opinions to themselves. The phrase "useful idiots" comes to mind.

Arthur Scargill was a self-declared hard-line Marxist revolutionary. He openly politicised the strike, by declaring on national television that it was about who ran the country; the NUM had, after all, forced a general election and a change of government only 10 years before.

The gloves were off at that point.

Having seen Scargill speak - and he was undoubtedly a very charismatic speaker - and met a considerable number of former coal miners in the aftermath ( tradesmen such as electricians and fitters were in particular demand in the reviving oil industry at the time ) I would say that the actual aims of the miners themselves were significantly different from Scargill's Marxist ideology.

They took the view that the Conservative administration would, if allowed to, destroy their industry and livelihood for their own reasons. However in turn, they also sought to protect the "closed shop"; a situation much like the Dock Labour Act which did so much long-term harm in that industry.

Scargill deliberately led them into places they would not willingly have gone, by manipulating procure to engineer a national strike - which was never actually sanctioned, but once begun, could not be ended by any known procedures - and had no logical outcome beyond a fight to the death.

There really was no way of negotiating an end to a dispute of that nature, because none of those involved would have accepted any workable solution in the emotive atmosphere of the times.







--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
IP: 86.30.241.199 Edited: 23/10/2012 11:39:42 by derrickman
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 11:44:13
Reply |  Quote
Nice! By the way, I wear insults as badges of honour. Smile

--

The most useful idiot you can ever hope to meet...
IP: 94.193.19.239
Jump to page << < 1 2 3 4 5 > >>
Safety LED Miners Caplamps Moore Books: Specialist Books I.A. Recordings: Mining and Industrial History DVDs Starless River - Caving Store Explore a Disused Welsh Slate Mine
Disclaimer: Mine exploring can be quite dangerous, but then again it can be alright, it all depends on the weather. Please read the proper disclaimer.
© 2005 to 2015 AditNow.co.uk
Top of Page