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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author Securing abandoned mines against entry
cheesy 47

Joined: 13/09/2010

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 11:23:18
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Hi

I'm carrying out a project looking at how abandoned mines are secured against accidental entry, both in the uk & overseas.

I wondered what the views of the exploration community were on this matter, such as should local authorities & others secure open shafts & adits? If yes how are they best advised to secure them? What should they watch out for? What would be good practice? or anything else that would be relevent.

Thanks
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RJV

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Joined: 16/03/2008
Location: Cleveland

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 11:35:42
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What's the motivation behind your project?

Think most people would say that coal shafts and the likes which suddenly open up in fields and so should be dealt with but the rest should generally be left alone.

If there isn't a problem why try and fix it?

--

Rich
IP: 80.254.146.20
JohnnearCfon

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Joined: 22/12/2005
Location: Sir Caernarfon

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 11:51:21
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To quote one of your own posts Cheesy:-

"A point that worth noting here is that there is no duty on the authorities to prevent entry to a disused mine, only to prevent accidental entry, ie if you choose to go into an old mine so be it, but the authorities must prevent your accidental entry, such as falling down an open shaft while going for a walk. There is no requirement on them to fill shafts; fences, caps, grilles & gates are perfectly acceptable and probably a better long term solution in many cases"

So, as RJV has already said, leave things as they are except as you outlined previously!
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SimonRL

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Joined: 27/11/2005
Location: North Wales

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 11:56:51
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Leave them be unless there's a clear and present danger. Like falling into an unfenced shaft, in which case put a fence round it. If it's an open adit, nobody can accidentally access it, they have to choose to go in.

--

indicative of the type of individual found at the periphery of a fringe activity
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royfellows

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Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 12:16:47
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Ceredigion policy is to prevent accidental entry but not deliberate entry.

Statutory nuisance policy depends on area, but generally considers proximity of open shafts to public paths and roads.

Having said this it is wise to fence open shafts whatever as a safeguard against civil tort


--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change
IP: 89.240.183.247 Edited: 18/11/2010 12:18:49 by royfellows
RJV

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 12:28:15
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It would be interesting to know what dangers you think might face someone who somehow accidently managed to walk into an adit?

Apart from extremely few cases the only danger I can think of is that you would find yourself in the black dark within ten yards of entering and have to turn round and leave.

--

Rich
IP: 80.254.146.20
royfellows

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 12:33:40
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RJV wrote:

It would be interesting to know what dangers you think might face someone who somehow accidently managed to walk into an adit?


Walking while under the influence?
Laugh

--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change
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JR

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Joined: 07/03/2008
Location: Lurking near Hereford

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 14:55:47
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On that subject of accidentaly doing unwise things whilst under the influance I was once in Wexford in Ireland and. being in Ireland consumed a more than adiquate amount of the local bevarage. Anyway come what passed for closing time in those parts and being in a harbour front pub I set off to my B&B by taking a short cut along the main Dublin to Rosslair railway line which cut across the old harbour mouth. It was only some time later thatb I thought "hello it's gone bloody dark" that I realised that I'd overshot my destination by over half a mile.

Oops Blink

--

The voices tell to write this stuff
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staffordshirechina

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 16:54:38
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Cheesy,
I am sure we would all be interested to know what form your 'project' takes. Is it a university thesis, an A level project, something for a consultancy client or what exactly?
There is a lot of expertise available from members of this forum but you need to come clean about your motives first.........
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Graigfawr

Joined: 04/11/2009

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 19:58:19
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simonrl wrote:

If it's an open adit, nobody can accidentally access it, they have to choose to go in.


Applies to adults certainly but what about children? Local authorities especially tend to be keen to secure adits near habitations / roads / footpaths for this reason. Personally I've always thought that a grovelly entrance and waist-deep water is more than adequate to dissuade children!
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cheesy 47

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 20:02:09
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Hi all

I'm just seeking views as I've been invited to a discussion meeting next week by CIRIA, the the construction industry body, which is looking at producing a document to be called the abandoned mineworkings manual. As far as I can tell the main thrust is around construction issues but there may well be a section on treatment of disused mine openings. As a member of a mines trust body I am interested in how abandoned entrances are dealt with as I for one am not keen on the fill it in and forget about it approach that my gut tells me the industry might push for.

Hope this clarifies my motives a bit more
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Peter Burgess

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Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 20:12:59
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Nearly all old mine entrances and shafts either on local authority land or near footpaths / roads in east Surrey have been made secure by local mine explorers in collaboration with bat conservation bodies, with the full knowledge and approval of the owners and/or the local authorities. They appreciate that those who like going into these places are going to be the best people when it comes to making the gates secure. It also saves them a certain amount of expense!


--

Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
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royfellows

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 20:40:34
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North pennines has gates on all mine entrances but not locked.
They are heavy gates hindged at the top and usually secured with a bolt that can be removed.

A clearly visible notice to the effect "Disused Mine Working, Danger of Death" drives the point home.

In other areas attempts have been made to block mine entrances with everthing from welded RSJs to concrete, yet determined people have still got in.

All food for thought.

--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change
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AR

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Location: Knot far from Knotlow in the middle of the Peak District

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 20:47:52
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I suggest you print out and take a copy of this document with you: [web link] - this is the DCC guide to dealing with shafts and adits, based on years of experience here in the Peak district and many thousands of shafts dealt with.

--

I sold my soul to Satan, but he brought it back and demanded a refund....
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derrickman

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Joined: 18/02/2009

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 18/11/2010 23:03:51
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I don't really see why CIRIA are sticking their noses into this issue. There is plenty of expertise about on the subject, plenty of experienced contractors and consultants.

It's probably true that they tend not to be involved with CIRIA, though
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jagman

Joined: 11/03/2007

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 19/11/2010 03:34:34
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A simple fence and a warning sign is sufficient.
That removes any possibility of accidental entry and makes sure that anyone entering is making a deliberate decision to do so.


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derrickman

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 19/11/2010 06:50:45
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unfortunately, not so.

When I was at Combe Down, we fitted several quite elaborate gates and/or grilles over entries specifically because various locals were in the habit of using them for assorted purposes - as a wine cellar, in one case.

Apart from anything else, the landowner and the mine owner may or may not be the same person or entity in legal terms. There is a great deal of risk aversion and litigation avoidance involved, and little expectation of the exercise of common sense in any possible legal proceedings.

There was much legal manoeuvering at Combe Down to define who was, or was not, the 'owner' of various outlying sections. Some outlying sections were left unstabilised,including more than one quite obvious entry on private property, because BaNES were sufficiently sure of their ground legally

There several members here who have past or current involvement with the management and/or stablisation of old workings, and they are mining people with mining qualifications not civil engineering people ( although they may have civils experience ) because that is a legal requirement



IP: 217.43.114.173 Edited: 19/11/2010 06:54:07 by derrickman
cheesy 47

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 19/11/2010 12:34:54
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Thanks for the link, I have seen this the Derbyshire document before, but this is largely from the "authorities" perspective.

What does the underground exploration community think? is there anything specific that you'd want to avoid in securing shafts etc? It might not make any difference, but at least I might be able to draw it to the attention of those producing the guidance, which is, by the way an update of guidance they produced about 20 years ago
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staffordshirechina

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 19/11/2010 13:14:57
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If you look at who the contributors to the Derbyshire report were, I think you will find it is heavily influenced by the hobby, not the council.
As both a long term hobby explorer and a working mining engineer, I think that it is a very sound document. During my professional career I have capped many hundreds of shafts, big and small both as a contractor and as a client's engineer and I find no problem with that report.
OK, maybe the bats get lots of space but as a contractor, bats were good for business- the caps always cost more!

In my experience of dealing with mining problems that have faced the construction industry, they have not always acquitted themselves well. Commonly, the first time a civils company knows about the mining problem is during a panic phone call from it's site agent. The game is then on to make the problem go away as quickly and cheaply as possible - preferably without anyone finding out. "No weeds in my garden" is their motto.

I would repeat what has been said by Derrickman, don't try to re-invent the wheel, call in mining professionals.
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derrickman

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 19/11/2010 13:28:26
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another vote for the Derbs document. I don't think it's any coincidence that the consultant for the Combe Down project is based in Chesterfield.

That said, the Cornish shafts tend to be rather different, consisting as they often do of relatively large rock shafts with more-or-less collapsed collars in weaker ground. The local council have their own policy for dealing with these which is discussed at some length elsewhere on this forum.

The residuary body for the former NCB also have fully-developed procedures for this work. Given the proverbial insularity of that body and its successors, I don't expect they will feel any need to involve, or co-operate with a body such as CIRIA

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