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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
SteveT

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Joined: 20/01/2009
Location: Derbyshire

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Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
Posted: 14/02/2009 09:15:55
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Worrying times indeed, and with police trained like this, what chance do we have.....

[web link]

or security staff like this perhaps

[web link]
IP: 86.2.145.139 Edited: 14/02/2009 09:16:31 by SteveT
ICLOK

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Joined: 19/02/2008
Location: Ripley, Derbyshire up North.

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Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
Posted: 14/02/2009 14:18:43
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Very worrying indeed....

Other notable incidents for me in the last 4-5 years of general photography,

1/ Told by a copper its illegal to photograph a speed camera Talivan. It was parked illegally and so dangerously obstructing the road (on a blind bend and double yellows within a hashed area). I and two others nearly hit it doing only 30mph so I stopped and took the picture to send in as it was that bad, really dangerous. One of the guys shot out and after explaining why I'd took the picture the officer says as he walks off ... Did you know its illegal to photograph any officer whilst in pursuance of his duties... more BS, they left a minutes later!
2/ Approached by some estate guy near a certain large country house locally who told me I cannot photograph the house or grounds/village off the highway without permission from his employer... its a public road, he left after I threatened to get the police as he was so abusive.
3/ Airport perimeter, 200 yards off outer fence, 2 police with guns and in body armour etc arrive in a range rover to tell me that Airline photography is illegal from my location!!! (normal uk airport) on a public footpath with waymarkers, 10 minute discussion ensues, threatened with the "legal consequences of my failure to move on as instructed", 8 others get moved on but I stand my ground, they leave without coming back to me. Initially they asked to see my airline registration log and pictures, they got neither and i did not move.
4/ Near entrance to St.Pancras station during renovation Network rail guy decides to ask me what I'm doing, getting a snap of the renovation as it progresses i reply smiling, he then tells me i have to have permission to photograph and moves to stand in way of camera...... he decides to leave after I threaten to call his boss there and then. My location.... on the public highway 8 feet off the station boundry on Euston Rd..

I have no problem with authority but I do when it is applied badly!

Defend your rights or lose them!

--

The railway isn't run simply for the convenience of your dragon!
IP: 78.150.41.225 Edited: 14/02/2009 14:21:04 by ICLOK
Knocker

Joined: 17/06/2008

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Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
Posted: 14/02/2009 17:39:11
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You are actually only allowed reasonable passage on a right of way, anything else (such as taking photos) is deemed to exceed this right and you are actually committing trespass. The question is is the owner of the subsoil (In the case of a road either the highways agency or council) really going to prosecute you for it? IP: 79.74.253.21
JohnnearCfon

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Joined: 22/12/2005
Location: Sir Caernarfon

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Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
Posted: 14/02/2009 17:44:50
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Knocker wrote:

You are actually only allowed reasonable passage on a right of way, anything else (such as taking photos) is deemed to exceed this right and you are actually committing trespass. The question is is the owner of the subsoil (In the case of a road either the highways agency or council) really going to prosecute you for it?


Yes, that is quite correct. You are allowed to "cross and recross" as many times as you like, and, I believe, do usual things that might be associated with that. ie. you can't stop and have a pic-nic. However, th original post, and most subsequent posts, were referring to being on or adjacent to public roads.

--

Cadwch Cymru'n daclus-Taflwch eich ysbwriel yn LLoeger
IP: 84.13.46.54
ICLOK

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Joined: 19/02/2008
Location: Ripley, Derbyshire up North.

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Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
Posted: 14/02/2009 17:46:27
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Yep! Beat me to it....

--

The railway isn't run simply for the convenience of your dragon!
IP: 78.150.41.225
Knocker

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Posted: 14/02/2009 17:52:04
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Certainly in the case pof the original post. and St Pancras. The one that could lead to a problem is actually the airport. Although taking the picture from outsied of the boundary fence, if the land is still owned by the Airport Company they could prosecute you - It would be totally unbelievable if it happened.

The one case where a prosecution has been succesful is where somebody was watching a racehorse train from a public right of way.
IP: 79.74.253.21
JohnnearCfon

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Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
Posted: 14/02/2009 17:57:05
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Knocker wrote:



The one case where a prosecution has been succesful is where somebody was watching a racehorse train from a public right of way.


He obviously stood still for too long, he should have kept walking back and forth! Anyone pausing momentarily, even to take a quick photo I would have thought would have been within reasonable activity. But if he had kept walking from one end to other and back there would have been no question about that being legal.

--

Cadwch Cymru'n daclus-Taflwch eich ysbwriel yn LLoeger
IP: 84.13.46.54
ICLOK

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Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
Posted: 14/02/2009 18:00:54
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prosecute for what... taking a picture off a public footpath?

"Acpo has clear guidelines on how to conduct a random stop and search: 'Officers are required by law to justify their actions to any individual they stop, citing: identification; the law under which they are stopped; and the reason for the search.

The Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) is unequivocal on the matter: 'Police officers may not prevent someone from taking a photograph in public unless they suspect criminal or terrorist intent,' they say in a statement. 'Their powers are strictly regulated by law and once an image has been recorded, the police have no power to delete or confiscate it without a court order.."


Having proved I was not a terrorist were they right?

--

The railway isn't run simply for the convenience of your dragon!
IP: 78.150.41.225 Edited: 14/02/2009 18:22:38 by ICLOK
Knocker

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Posted: 14/02/2009 19:25:15
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Slow down, just because I said you can be prosecuted, I ever said the police could - they can't as you are not commiting a criminal offence - only the land owner can - and he can't stop and search you, arrest you or much else really.

I'm not trying to justify the police in their actions at all, I wouldn't attempt to.
IP: 79.74.253.21
ICLOK

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Posted: 14/02/2009 19:51:42
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No never thought you did/had Flowers ..... Apologies to everyone if I seem a bit naffed off and rattled with the authorities but from my earliest days of being any sort of enthusiast involving photos its been a constant source of angst, I am a law abiding citizen and resent their total disrespect of that by what is usually a bullish approach, then they wonder as they try ever harder to intimidate us why we have started answering back, and taking them to task......

(Most should take a leaf out of Stansted police... I drove into a restricted ish area as first time there...got stopped... they very pleasently explained why, we did the old stop and search.... then they drove in front of me and lead me to some great spots for pictures/viewing. They spent 10 mins chatting and then left saying "enjoy your day and if you ever see owt dodgy give us a call on XXXXXX, infact mate write it in your book at the back".... I nearly passed out Laugh )



--

The railway isn't run simply for the convenience of your dragon!
IP: 78.150.41.225
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
Posted: 14/02/2009 19:56:53
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ICLOK wrote:

No never thought you did/had Flowers ..... Apologies to everyone if I seem a bit naffed off and rattled with the authorities but from my earliest days of being any sort of enthusiast involving photos its been a constant source of angst, I am a law abiding citizen and resent their total disrespect of that by what is usually a bullish approach, then they wonder as they try ever harder to intimidate us why we have started answering back, and taking them to task......

(Most should take a leaf out of Stansted police... I drove into a restricted ish area as first time there...got stopped... they very pleasently explained why, we did the old stop and search.... then they drove in front of me and lead me to some great spots for pictures/viewing. They spent 10 mins chatting and then left saying "enjoy your day and if you ever see owt dodgy give us a call on XXXXXX, infact mate write it in your book at the back".... I nearly passed out Laugh )



I have heard this elsewhere, that airport security encourage enthusiasts because they are "harmless nutters" but very observant harmless nutters who can act as eyes and ears for them. Airports are huge places and I would have thought every extra bit of help should be welcome.

--

Hey, who turned out the lights!
IP: 92.2.120.145
Manicminer

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Joined: 29/04/2007
Location: North Wales

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Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
Posted: 14/02/2009 20:18:56
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Pdf download of photographers' rights in the Uk by linda Macpherson.

[web link]



--

Gold is where you find it
IP: 90.241.221.112
ICLOK

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Posted: 14/02/2009 20:22:27
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Peter, It is welcomed in some places, Luton, Stansted policed us rather than abusing us.... we returned the favour by watching for them. However at Heathrow etc we just get abused..... not much better in Brum as i remember.

Oddly I remember an era with IRA threats when rail enthusiasts were encouraged to look out for dodgy parcels etc....

Couple of years ago in Majorca we were all visited by the police who gave us a biz card so we could phone them if anything untoward was seen.... they stood drinking orange juice with us in the sun... I quote "There is only 3 of us police here, only 6 eyes, you guys got hundreds..."

--

The railway isn't run simply for the convenience of your dragon!
IP: 78.150.41.225
minerat

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Joined: 15/01/2008
Location: cheshire

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Should I just give up mine exploring?!?
Posted: 14/02/2009 20:41:33
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what happened to the term....a PUBLIC highway or thoroughfare. isnt it owned by the public ??? just thought i`d ask !!!!

--

be afraid.....very afraid !!!!
IP: 86.133.75.125
Manicminer

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Posted: 14/02/2009 20:49:41
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It is a criminal offence to obstruct free passage on the highway and this includes footways and cycle paths as well as roads. Setting up a tripod in a busy street/road could be treated as obstruction depending on the inconvenience caused.

--

Gold is where you find it
IP: 90.241.221.112
Knocker

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Posted: 14/02/2009 21:48:03
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No its not owned by the public, its owned by the highways authority (Who are a public body, be it council or Highways Agency). Thats a similar argument to saying an RAF base is free access as its publicly owned. Try walking past reception in your local council office. IP: 79.74.253.21
toadstone

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Joined: 10/09/2007
Location: Father's Dwelling, Big Low

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Posted: 16/02/2009 00:04:05
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Due to technical difficulties I've not been able to follow this thread as much as I would have liked and joined in. However I did pose the question as to when ICLOK experienced his run in with the police on the A515. The reasons being that the said road has been subject to close examination and a "sensitive area" for several reasons over the years, not all connected. (The stretch between Buxton & Ashbourne).
The late Diana, Princess of Wales flew into Pilsbury (Hartington) on more than a few occasions just before her death it would appear.
The various hunts that also operate in and around that area and over towards us often have Royals as guests, so I'm told.
Along with the Cat & Fiddle it is beloved by Bikers and photos of your machine at speed are sort after, hence the road restrictions now imposed on certain stretches.

So it is easy to see why an apparently "innocent area" can be become sensitive and of interest to the Police.

Jumping to the establishments and airports etc. Times really do change. I can remember in, I think it was the early 70's when a couple of UK youths on holiday in Yugoslavia (as it then was), took pictures at an airport. I can't remember the precise details but they ended up in jail over there. Quite a furore at the time. Anyway imagine my surprise when he turned up as one of my classmates on my ATCO cadet course a few years later. Great guy and what he didn't know about aircraft was not worth knowing !!!

So far up to now with my Kite flying photography I mainly have a good response. I'm known out and about locally and into the Peak. We'll see how I get on this spring/summer when I hope to be more active than last year.

Peter.
IP: 86.162.149.39
ICLOK

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Posted: 16/02/2009 00:33:35
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Forgot to respond, about 12-14 months ago on A515.... and I used that road everyday at that time (and the C & F).... nothing special was going on... I just decided to stop that day to do a pic I'd been meaning to.

As for aviation pics... its still dodgy in many countries, however a quick letter in advance often opens up doors... Bulgarian ministry more than accomodating.... Thumbs Up never yet been arrested for such stuff.... its about planning.



--

The railway isn't run simply for the convenience of your dragon!
IP: 78.150.34.23
skippy

Joined: 30/03/2008
Location: Shropshire

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Posted: 18/02/2009 21:44:10
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We dont always help ourselves - I got done years ago as a teenager for 'nicking' a couple of oldhams from what I thought was an abandoned mine - they never worked.. - and recently an otherwise well respected member of our northern mining fraternity was had up by the bill for going back into a quarry one time too many - fined £200 and slapped on the wrist - as if there's something wrong with wandering around abandoned quarries - could have something to do with the local police getting a bit jumpy about anything to do with mining /mineral collecting or whatever.. we'll just have to stick to wandering around at night with silenced hammers and chisels!!

Incidentally, I know another local AN member who perfectly innocently took photos of an old mine on the caldbeck fells and was accosted by a couple of geriatric volunteer park rangers who told him in no uncertain terms to go away, and he shouldnt be there.. I'm amazed he didnt smack them in the teeth.



--

The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth
... but not the Mineral Rights...
IP: 91.84.15.191
ICLOK

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Posted: 18/02/2009 22:14:22
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Sorry to hear about your friend .... was he taken to court by the landowner for trespass backed by the police then? as I thought trespass was a civil offence... accept on the railway where its criminal.

Lots of unhappiness with the new anti terrorism rules that landed on us on Monday re photography etc which prevents us photographing plod (or armed forces inc retired) in action... they can now arrest you for this on the grounds that you might be using it to organise or help organise a terror attack... they would still have to prove that but now at least they can nick you....

Yet another erosion of civil liberties... they can film and photo us from 6 angles by cctv every where we go but now we can't photograph them for fear of arrest.
Of course they won't abuse this new power, just like they havn't the stop and search thing.... Guns excuse the sarcasm...

I'm really screwed now as I do railways, planes, old mines, old buildings and generally any photo subject I see that I like. ..... wonder if all the shower cubicle stories re prison are true.... now wheres the soap.... Laugh

--

Whoops.... don't touch that... too late!!
IP: 78.150.2.218
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