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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author Casting iron
carnkie

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Casting iron
Posted: 22/01/2009 23:56:51
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Came across this photo which may or not be of interest.
Turkestsan around 1870.
Shows a man casting.


(click image to open full size image in new window)

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The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
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Wormster

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 00:16:18
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OOOOHHH, tres interssant,

Lost wax or core and sand method?

discuss..............

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Better to regret something you have done - than to regret something you have not done.
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carnkie

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 01:24:44
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Sorry Wormster can't shed any light on this.


(click image to open full size image in new window)

I found this interesting.
A tin smith.


(click image to open full size image in new window)


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Liquidator

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 07:54:35
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How can you tell from the picture that it's a tin smith?

The chains and other stuff hanging up would have been iron wouldn't they?
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AR

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 08:34:20
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The tools are sheet working hammers for raising and suchlike and he's got a small stake anvil so tin/coppersmith is a fair call for his occupation. Quite why the chains are there, I'm not sure!


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Redwinch

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 09:12:16
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Wormster wrote:

OOOOHHH, tres interssant,

Lost wax or core and sand method?

discuss..............


Sand/loam casting is most likely, lost wax is usually for very detailed small castings, as for the photo of the tinsmith and chains, maybe a case of multi-skilling ? (I hate that phrase!!)

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ICLOK

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 10:15:18
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I do casting of Railway bits and bobs and I hand mould stuff when I can so the first pic is excellent and shows the mould being made around a pattern, the pattern will probably made of wax or something silmilar . Once the mud/sand/clay mould is made they will cook/heat the mould to melt the wax and harden the mould off, a clay with good refractory properties usually being used if available. as the wax melts it can be poured back into the the wax pattern mould thus making efficient re use of the wax. The now empty hard mould would probably be packeded in sand on the casting floor and a lid added to the mould with a runner and riser to allow metal in and gas/air out. The pattern in this case cannot be removed as in modern split box casting as it is double undercut.
If the wax were to be left in the mould it would be hugely wasteful on the scale shown being vapourised as the metal went in, so the above method seems most probable. I have seen this type of casting in China in some really out lying poor regions and its great to watch.

In making smaller item they would probably use lost wax proper for things like brass knobs, lock components etc but the moulding process would be the same in essence but they would not bother recovering the tiny bit of wax.

Tin Smith can in some cases simply mean a metal worker, even small iron smithies used to work other metal including casting lead and bits of brass, the material probably just refers to their primary metals worked.

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IP: 78.145.182.50 Edited: 23/01/2009 10:21:06 by ICLOK
Wormster

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 11:36:15
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ICLOK wrote:

I do casting of Railway bits and bobs and I hand mould stuff when I can so the first pic is excellent and shows the mould being made around a pattern, the pattern will probably made of wax or something silmilar . Once the mud/sand/clay mould is made they will cook/heat the mould to melt the wax and harden the mould off, a clay with good refractory properties usually being used if available. as the wax melts it can be poured back into the the wax pattern mould thus making efficient re use of the wax. The now empty hard mould would probably be packeded in sand on the casting floor and a lid added to the mould with a runner and riser to allow metal in and gas/air out. The pattern in this case cannot be removed as in modern split box casting as it is double undercut.
If the wax were to be left in the mould it would be hugely wasteful on the scale shown being vapourised as the metal went in, so the above method seems most probable. I have seen this type of casting in China in some really out lying poor regions and its great to watch.

In making smaller item they would probably use lost wax proper for things like brass knobs, lock components etc but the moulding process would be the same in essence but they would not bother recovering the tiny bit of wax.


Ahh yes - Investment casting, such a lovely way of producing delicate work.

Spilt box and core molding - a good way of mass production.

(In a past life I specalised in doing this at college, along with blacksmithing - something that I'm looking to get back into, after a break of 20 odd years.)

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ICLOK

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 12:13:51
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Am quite into this field as I make locomotive nameplates and other stuff for locomotives and enjoy hand moulding.

I did some archaeological experiments in my Garden casting replica broaches and other stuff in small clay, sand moulds, making wax patterns and so on. I always had a theory that large roman coins were cast blanks as I've found afew when occasionally metal detecting, seems I was right from experimental archaeology done on Time Time as they certainly could not have been stamped as way to heavy and thick, others now agree too. I have a wonderful "Roman Soldier on horse Back" statue bought from a mate and the hollow casting of it is a work of art given it was cast 1,850 years ago approx from a hand modelled wax/soap carving. i harranged him to death to get it as the casting is so good and has been authenticated to that era. When you think of the fine work carried out in open moulds, clay moulds etc its remarkable how clever our forefathers were. Especially in casting Silver jewelry etc,

Believe it or not you can still find little foundries and smithies doing just what the picture showed, such as in Morocco and have seen similar in China and even in Turkey in the East they do little castings there, nothing big just small non ferrous. Not a moulding box in site and they have never heard of Air Set or resin Sand! Thumbs Up

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IP: 78.145.182.50 Edited: 23/01/2009 12:20:47 by ICLOK
Wormster

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 12:29:42
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Iclock,

Have you tried taking an impression in a cuttlefish bone? I know that some jwellers (the Great Frog in London) use this method.

Build up a model of your item to be cast in wax or base metal then impress inbetween cuttlefish bones, cut out pouring holes and risers, clamp, then fill.

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ICLOK

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 13:36:54
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Saw that on Time Team and according to John French (a field archaeologist) it works really well if you can get the clamping right to minimise metal flowing from edges.... might have a go at that for a laugh..... here we go again!

I usually use lead first at home to prove the theory and if it works brass up at my mates foundry where he lets me play!





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JohnnearCfon

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 13:50:53
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You had better watch it ICLOK, giving out all those details about Roman coins, or our friend in Telford might put some on ebay! Big Grin

Fascinating photos and info though.

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carnkie

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 14:32:42
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Forgot this one. Might as well complete the set. Thanks for all the info. guys. Smile



(click image to open full size image in new window)

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IP: 79.74.236.32 Edited: 23/01/2009 14:34:41 by carnkie
Morlock

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 15:00:33
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Spilt box and core molding - a good way of mass production.

(quote]

The boxes are called "Cope & "Drag" if I remember, I started work in a foundry that was changing over to general engineering in the sixties.

Casting was also part of the MECP craft apprentice course.

IP: 86.0.96.226 Edited: 23/01/2009 15:02:11 by Morlock
ICLOK

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 16:05:25
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John, its a bit late for Telford stampings limited to join the party... Wink

Off Topic I know....
Ebay is awash with replica roman coins and if I'm truthful I only ever buy them from dealers on Ebay I know and trust... modern jewelry casting techniques mean gold, silver coins are a doddle and some forgers have dies made in eastern europe (the dies cost about £300 and about £1000 over here) from which they strike almost perfect facimilies. Condition is a big give away but they even put wear marks on them by tumbling and rubbing. Angry
The same with many antiquities too such as bronzes. Hence the really nice cast pieces with full background cost a bomb...



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ICLOK

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 16:57:45
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OOOOOPs and thanks for posting the pics Carn.... fascinating! Smile

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JohnnearCfon

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 18:11:26
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The Welsh Slate Museum, Llanberis, have a film called "Craftsmen of Dinorwig" although I don't think they show it now. It goes into great detail about the pattern making, mould making, and casting. Although for the casting demonstration they use lead. The film points out that normally iron item would have been cast there.

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AR

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 19:14:39
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You're right about Roman coins being cast ICLOK, coin moulds have been found on sites in the UK (See R.F. Tylecote's "Prehistory of Metallurgy in the British Isles" for more info). I certainly wouldn't trust anything of this ilk for sale on Ebay, and it's amazing how quickly you can produce a patina on copper alloys by burial in a dungheap.....

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ICLOK

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 22:34:29
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I saw an 'aging' demo at a sunday market... they got brand new brass door knobs, quick run over with fine wire wool, dipped it in the patternating fluid and voila.... 100 years old in an instant....


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Wormster

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Casting iron
Posted: 23/01/2009 23:08:58
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JohnnearCfon wrote:

The Welsh Slate Museum, Llanberis, have a film called "Craftsmen of Dinorwig" although I don't think they show it now. It goes into great detail about the pattern making, mould making, and casting. Although for the casting demonstration they use lead. The film points out that normally iron item would have been cast there.


OOOOOHHH I remember that one, didn't they film an old boy setting up a mold of a gear wheel directly into sand (no core boxes etc) and as you point out casting in lead??

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