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Author Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
waggonwayman

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 18:20:12
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Any idea which mine ordered Thomas Saverys' 'Miners' Friend' ?

Waggonwayman.
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JR

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 18:42:15
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I could well be wrong (in which case I'm sure someone will correct this) but as I understand it 'Captain Savery's miner's friend' was never used in any real sense at all. It (and Savery himself for that matter) profited from the quirks of the British patent regulations at the time. Since the Miner's Friend performed (theoretically) the same task (pumping water) as Newcomen's Atmospheric 'fire engine' Newcomen was compelled to include Savery in his patent.

Newcomen's engine was first used at a coal mine near Dudley.

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waggonwayman

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 19:24:15
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http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Personal-Album-176/Making-Water---Younger-2004.pdf
states that one was order [and I presume at least tested] by a mine.

WWM
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carnkie

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 19:27:05
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I think you are pretty much right about Savery but I thought Necomens first steam engine was erected at Dudley Castle, Staffordshire in 1712. Although having said that in his book Trevithick says one was erected at Griff in Warwickshire in the same year. IP: 88.105.237.135
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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 19:32:55
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waggonwayman wrote:

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Personal-Album-176/Making-Water---Younger-2004.pdf
states that one was order [and I presume at least tested] by a mine.

WWM


Trevithick says that in 1702 Savery is said to have erected the first steam pumping engine in Cornwall but there are not many traces of its practical application. It had to befixed near the bottom of the shaft or within 30 feet of the level of water.
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JR

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 19:35:42
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carnkie wrote:

I think you are pretty much right about Savery but I thought Necomens first steam engine was erected at Dudley Castle, Staffordshire in 1712. Although having said that in his book Trevithick says one was erected at Griff in Warwickshire in the same year.

I think there was a little poetic licence at play when Dudley Castle is mentioned it meant in sight of the castle (besides any other reason Dudley castle is atop a hill, not the place to put a pump). The actual site is unknown but is believed to be in the vicinity of the replica engine at the Black Country Museum.

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IP: 88.110.70.222 Edited: 30/04/2008 19:39:30 by JR
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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 19:49:00
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You could be right but this from the Science Museum.

[web link]

Actually Trevithick could be nearer the mark.
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Boggy

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 20:03:10
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heres a link to a surviving newcomen engine that henry ford took from oldham and preserved in his museum (possibly the oldest surviving one).
[web link]

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JR

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 20:03:52
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Thanks for that link carnkie. That was the view I was thinking of but couldn.t recall the book I saw it in. As I say Dudley Castle is very high up (the view of the castle in the background of the picture supports this) and a pump (particularly an experimental one) would not be located some fifty feet above the water table when an adit or two would suffice. The view in the picture is the basis for the supposition that the original was located at,or very near, the current location of the Burnt Tree traffic roundabout (about 200 yards from the site of the replica).
Never let it be said that we Blackcountrymen lack a sense of history!
Still we're not a lot closer to coming up with an answer to waggonwayman's original question are we?
Blink

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IP: 88.110.70.222 Edited: 30/04/2008 20:05:21 by JR
carnkie

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 20:39:45
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jr48 wrote:

Still we're not a lot closer to coming up with an answer to waggonwayman's original question are we?
Blink


I'm not sure we ever will be. I think he erected a test engine at some, as yet, unknown mine (will probably stay unknown). It was found to be impractical and not used.

Where is Griff anyway?
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JR

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 30/04/2008 20:59:37
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I agree. I think the closest we can get is probably here....
[web link]
and on the following page of the link
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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 01/05/2008 13:31:55
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Griff is here
[web link]

The link at '6674' to the right gives a little more detail.

Also see here
[web link] for more detail than you could shake a stick at !

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IP: 88.111.141.142 Edited: 01/05/2008 13:49:36 by JR
carnkie

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 01/05/2008 14:21:40
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Ta. Looks like Trevithick got his dates wrong. He said 1712 not 1716. IP: 88.105.228.24
JR

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 01/05/2008 14:22:32
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waggonwayman wrote:

Any idea which mine ordered Thomas Saverys' 'Miners' Friend' ?

Waggonwayman.


This is from the Wikipedia entry on Savery "A few Savery engines were tried in mines, an unsuccessful attempt being made to use one to clear water from a mine at Broadwaters in Wednesbury, then in Staffordshire.[2], and one was built to control the water supply at Hampton Court, while another at Campden House in Kensington operated for 18 years. the source is here [web link]

I hope this helps answer your original question WWM.

Thumbs Up

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JR

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 01/05/2008 15:02:20
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Yes I know I'm replying to myself here but I had a thought that I feel compelled to add.It's the location of a Miner's Friend in Wednesbury that got me thinking. You see Wednesbury is where the '9 yard' seam of the South Staffs coalfield broke surface. I remember as a child my Dad telling me that the graves in the churchyard where dug into coal.
Now while I can see that a plentiful supply of cheap fuel would be needed given the pump's prodigious appetite for fuel it makes no sense to me to go to the expense of erecting a pump where if a need to pump a mine existed the far more obvious and logical remedy would have been to sink a shaft elsewhere. After all Wednesbury was (and for the most part still is) built on over 30ft of coal (and is about 300 ft above sea level into the bargain).

Think I'll go away and lie down in a darkened room after that lot. Surrender

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 01/05/2008 15:34:55
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I see what you mean. As I mentioned in an earlier post Trevithick mentions that in 1702 Savery is said to have erected the first steam pumping engine in Cornwall, of which he wrote thus in ‘Miners Friend’:-

“ I have known in Cornwall a work with three lifts of about 18 feet each, lift and carry a 31/2 inch bore; that cost 42 shillings a day. I dare undertake that my engine shall raise you as much water for eight-pence as will cost you a shilling to raise the like with your old engines in coal pits.”

I hope that makes more sense to you than it does to me because it’s not obvious from that that he actually had an engine in Cornwall and the ref. to coal pits is suspicious because none existed in Cornwall.

Which leaves us where exactly.
Surrender
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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 01/05/2008 16:03:45
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Which leaves us where exactly.


In both Cornwall and the Blackcountry up to our necks in confusion perhaps ?
Blink

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 01/05/2008 17:47:41
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carnkie wrote:

I see what you mean. As I mentioned in an earlier post Trevithick mentions that in 1702 Savery is said to have erected the first steam pumping engine in Cornwall, of which he wrote thus in ‘Miners Friend’:-

“ I have known in Cornwall a work with three lifts of about 18 feet each, lift and carry a 31/2 inch bore; that cost 42 shillings a day. I dare undertake that my engine shall raise you as much water for eight-pence as will cost you a shilling to raise the like with your old engines in coal pits.”

I hope that makes more sense to you than it does to me because it’s not obvious from that that he actually had an engine in Cornwall and the ref. to coal pits is suspicious because none existed in Cornwall.

Which leaves us where exactly.
Surrender


Could this confusion possibly be the result of the joint Savery/Newcomen patent and the term 'Miner's Friend' attained a generic quality (like Hoover for vacum cleaner). Could Trevithick actually be referring to Newcomen engines in Cornwall? Or are the dates wrong or that?
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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 01/05/2008 18:12:21
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I don't think he is mixing them up. He goes on to Newcomen and says he erected an engine at Ludgvan-Lez (wherever that is) in Cornwall in 1720. He doesn't actually state that it was the first to be erected here. Probably just as well because Buckley says it's believed the first one was erected at either Wheal Vor or Great Work in 1716.
The only certain thing about all of this is that nothing is certain.
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JR

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 01/05/2008 18:19:56
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Yup. On the other hand we are talking the best part of 400 years ago. In perspective the civil war would be as nearly in memory as WW1 is to us.

Shall we put this one to bed? I think I may be beginning to obsess about Savery.
Shocked Shocked Shocked

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