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Author Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
ferret

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 17/03/2008 01:25:56
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this is a very interesting pic and i'm just wondering if anybody has more info on the site in question and more to the point what created these most interesting tunnels Thumb Up



(click image to open full size image in new window)

Tweak: Thread title changed by Vanoord
IP: 81.139.112.98 Edited: 17/03/2008 13:31:00 by (moderator)
Jimbo

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Abercwmeiddaw-Slate-Mine: binocular tube (photo)
Posted: 17/03/2008 08:55:01
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Have a look at this link [web link], it's a subject that has been discussed in detail before Smile

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IP: 84.13.86.102 Edited: 17/03/2008 08:55:21 by Jimbo
Vanoord

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 17/03/2008 13:28:14
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A couple more pics from Thorpey:



(click image to open full size image in new window)



(click image to open full size image in new window)

The second one is quite interesting as the tunnel appears to be in mid-air - presumably this was either cut from the inside or the ground has been worked away outside?

This is indeed referenced by Grahami in the tunneller thread:

grahami wrote:


1. Abercwmeiddaw - In 1871 the tenants were W.F.Cooke and G.Hunter, and in 1871 when it was up for sale amongst the plant was 1. a tunneler, 2. an undercutting machine, 3. a "double" saw and 4. a planer. So I rather think that my previous comments about a Brunton tunneller creating the "binoculars" there were wrong - it was Cooke and Hunter again.



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Filling space until a new signature comes along...
IP: 81.139.112.98 Edited: 17/03/2008 13:31:18 by Vanoord
stevem

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 17/03/2008 14:29:29
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Does anyone know how many bored tunnels there are...starting in North Wales for now??

I feel a few visits coming on Wink

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 17/03/2008 16:41:41
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If you follow Jimbo's link, somewhere in the thread/discussion, Grahami has, I think, listed the known Cooke/Hunter bored tunnels in North Wales. I haven't checked but I don't recall your find, Stevem, in Penmachno, as being listed. What is Rumah Ketchil? It's been puzzling me!
I have no idea how many bored tunnels there are in UK but it is a very interesting subject that leads to all kinds of subject areas and topics.
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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 17/03/2008 16:57:33
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Hi Gwyn,
Thanks. Will have another look at Grahami's posts.
(Rumah Kechil is the name of the cottage we stay at in Cwm Penmachno. Its owned by a scout group so we get it really cheap and quite often. The name I think is Indain, don't know why it was called that will have to do some research)

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grahami

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 17/03/2008 17:12:00
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I havn't seen the Penmachno tunnel myself, which, If I remember rightly, is the drainage tunnel for Rhiwbach, but I suppose it's not impossible to imagine that the Hunter tunneller was used there - the mind boggles at it being transported over the Rhiwbach tramway though! I've not go the Rhiwbach book here to consult, but I think there's a phot of the tunnel in it.

Grahami

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 17/03/2008 17:22:22
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Hi Graham,
Not sure if it is the Rhiwbach drainage tunnel. I think that one was driven by traditional methods (and in a rush hence the limited headroom).
The one I found is right down in the valley (75413 47246) under all the tips, and I "presume" it provided drainage from the quarry (now filled in) down the valley.
Parallel to the trench in which the adit is is another trench which I "presume" was a tramway of sorts.
Will have a look in the Rhiwbach book also,
Cheers
S

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thorpey

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 17/03/2008 17:27:53
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just added a nother view out from the bores showing that the area has been worked away since they where bored.
Thorpey



(click image to open full size image in new window)


Tweak: Image added to this post - ta for uploading it!
IP: 81.139.112.98 Edited: 17/03/2008 17:34:26 by (moderator)
Gwyn

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 17/03/2008 18:00:38
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Nice one Thorpey! Thank you. Thumbs Up IP: 172.143.23.212
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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 17/03/2008 18:03:09
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Thanks Thorpey, amazing to see the remains of the tunnel where it's been quarried away around and below.

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 20/03/2008 13:45:58
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My colleague had buried this on his desk - I've been wondering where it was for 18 months or more! Anyway - a genuine Hunter Saw tooth from Hafod Las quarry.


(click image to open full size image in new window)


(click image to open full size image in new window)


(click image to open full size image in new window)


(click image to open full size image in new window)

Grahami

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Gwyn

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 20/03/2008 14:34:28
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Great! Thank you for the pictures, Graham.
It looks identical to the scale drawing of the 1864 Tunneller, tooth mounting block, image 017.
Were the teeth of the 1864 Tunneller and the saw inter-changeable, both sharing the mounting block system. seen in your pictures?
It's interesting to compare this Cooke/Hunter tooth and mounting with the one, fig.7, on image 034.
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grahami

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 20/03/2008 15:45:48
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Gwyn wrote:

Great! Thank you for the pictures, Graham.
It looks identical to the scale drawing of the 1864 Tunneller, tooth mounting block, image 017.
Were the teeth of the 1864 Tunneller and the saw inter-changeable, both sharing the mounting block system. seen in your pictures?
It's interesting to compare this Cooke/Hunter tooth and mounting with the one, fig.7, on image 034.


I don't know if they were interchangeable or not - but it's certainly a possibility. Bear in mind that they were also looking at simpler/cheaper teeth based on sprung steel rather than solid tips as well.

Graham

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 20/03/2008 16:31:11
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That would explain the complete change in design and thinking with the chip tooth blade.
Interesting to see that the saw blades in the Penmorfa picture have distinct tails, your sample lacks one.
It's very hard to tell from the pictures of your sample what the wear pattern might have been but it would seem that this cutter would have used half its circumference to cut. This assumes that there wasn't a left hand cutter in front and a right hand cutter behind, which might well have been the case, although it would have put some great shear stress on the blade body.
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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 20/03/2008 16:46:42
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Gwyn wrote:

That would explain the complete change in design and thinking with the chip tooth blade.
Interesting to see that the saw blades in the Penmorfa picture have distinct tails, your sample lacks one.
It's very hard to tell from the pictures of your sample what the wear pattern might have been but it would seem that this cutter would have used half its circumference to cut. This assumes that there wasn't a left hand cutter in front and a right hand cutter behind, which might well have been the case, although it would have put some great shear stress on the blade body.


Bear in mind how long that tooth had been left in the ground! Looking at the tip, it is well corroded and the long thin end has been broken off at some time. Remember that the socket originally contained an india-rubber sleeve. When I get a mo, I'll take some more shots with a ruler in place or scan it directly so you can get a better feel for it.

Graham

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 21/03/2008 19:03:05
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I'd agree about corrosion but useage can leave different marks and patterns. All so hard to tell from photographs...and this a sample of one, very welcome though!
Were the tooth and holder found as one?
What is known of the India rubber inserts? Were these to accomodate slight dimensional variation in the manufacturing process or some early form of shock absorbing system? This might pertain to the "shock loading" and using an upcut.
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ICLOK

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 21/03/2008 20:17:03
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Sorry to chip in here, the teeth on this thing could have been from a Wolfram based steel or just an early hardened HC steel. Steel had only been around in commercially viable quantities since 1856 and Wolfram based steels were patented by Robert Oxland in 1857, certainly in 1864 these alloy steels would still have been very expensive. Re the rubber insert it was most probably to absorb shock and more importantly damp vibration which would have caused the teeth to chatter and given the design have vibrated the whole thing to pieces. The rubber would also have made it quiter when running.
I doubt rubber would last long in such an application as it would not have been like the high impact stuff we have today. There definately would have been issues in the joining of rubber to the tooth or holder as no real complex adhesives existed, it may have been hot poured to produce what we call a metallastic joint. Rubber in industrial applications from my experience on locomotives and rollingstock, and old machinery doesn't really get viable in high impact applications until the 1890's.

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IP: 84.13.45.65 Edited: 21/03/2008 20:19:23 by ICLOK
Gwyn

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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 22/03/2008 20:40:59
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Chip away Iclok! Your input is most welcome. I have to admit little knowledge of the developmental history of steels.
So, in your knowledge, would (could?) the "first" CookeHunter tunneller, given the evidence, be powered by wrought iron rope (or steel rope)? I am informed that wrought iron rope is "slippery" especially when wet, difficult to tension and of course, weaker than steel rope. This might explain the, apparent,change in design to a splined, "pto" connection on the second version.
The direction and loading on the teeth would have pushed the teeth into the socket, against the compression of the rubber sleeve. Any form of glueing seems superflous, surely? Especially so as the teeth probably needed frequent removal for re-sharpening. I am much inclined to agree with you on the other attributes. Any opinion on the damaging, vibration frequencies that the saw was likely to produce?!!
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Abercwmeiddaw - Hunter tunneller
Posted: 23/03/2008 01:59:03
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Again from industrial applications iron wound ropes seemed to stay the course for a long while. A good friend advises me that people were slow on the up take of steels were iron would do (cheap, tried & trusted) and these ropes survived in mining for years (as late as 1900 he tells me on shafts used for lowering props and maintenance in the coal fields). I am advised that iron ropes are more slippery, I believe its because wrought Iron is structurally grained in the manufacturing process and has a tendency to self lubricate due to its metallurgy, steel has a different structure altogether and does not have the same property as it has a better structure, steel ropes tension far better and have better elastic/spring properties. Plus iron wears quickers hence gets smooth flats quicker.
Certainly by 1866 there were very strong steel wire ropes about, some being associated with laying the cables from the SS Great Britain across the Atlantic when the cables were lost and needed lifting and recovering... There were various sections available based around different cores, fibre, patents etc, the navy were even using them in rigging applications.
Given the duty/application of the tunneler I would like to believe they would have opted for the better strength and tensionional properties of steel cables and forged steel teeth thus making their product more viable and controllable.
In truth i think the era of the tunneler defines its materials, certainly as someone has said before on this site the teeth are the key and I think the manufacturer was making use of the latest steel technology probably including high grade alloys (inc wolfram) certainly available by then. The teeth shown would chip once worn just like modern machine tools. My point re bonding is just what you say, yes the motion would push the teeth positively into the holder but what would prevent them springing out or de-centering when the unit was with drawn from a heading for maintenance as it dragged? . Hence why I wondered if they were re-moulded in even after removal or sharpening, just a thought. Did they counter rotate the head to remove the machine from a heading for repair?? The version of tooth with the tail would have very positively located in the holder but with no resilience and would have transmitted a lot if not all of the force and vibration back through the tunneler. I think it would have had no resilience to sudden hard spots hence the move to the rubber.
Re vibration I cant say but i would imagine it would have been a low frequency/noise with powerful forces generated back thru the structure as a whole attacking the bigger joints and assemblies but not the nuts and bolts, but again this would be dependent on rate of feed, depth of cut. Given that the teeth were apparently forged then machined to a cone hence a circular edge I wonder if the teeth were prone to chip along the grain.... correct me if I'm wrong but are not tunnel borer teeth square (or rectangular) now days with out exception so that the cross sectional area of the tooth under load is greater thus absorbing more punishment.
In a saw blade application the rounded cutting edge would be fine but given a lateral force on it in tunneling at same time you have two directional forces on the tooth edge distributed over 180 degrees and a bending moment across the tooth also. The same would apply to a square tooth but the cross sectional area is greater so absorbs the punishment more.

But given the right rate of feed this would have worked a treat, probably grinding its way along smoothly, and precisely rather than gouging.

Thats my thought..... its late and i'm probably hopelessly wrong. Sleeping

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Release the Kraken...
IP: 78.145.83.195 Edited: 23/03/2008 08:28:11 by ICLOK
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