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Author Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
royfellows

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Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 13/03/2015 09:53:49
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rhychydwr wrote:

I thought someone would have asked:

THE CAVES AND MINES OF THE SYCHRHYD GORGE by Keith Jones April 1992 Part 9 in the series Limestones and Caves of South Wales. 32 pp 15 surveys and maps, colour frontis, 2 colour 3 B&W photographs / illustrations. This account presents detailed information on all the known caves and mines of the Sychrhyd Gorge. This enchantingly beautiful area is found at the head of the Vale of Neath, 3 kilometres north east of Glyn Neath near the village of Pont Nedd Fechan. The limestone gorge is 500 metres long and is located on the downstream end of the River Sychryd just before its confluence with the River Mellte, and is guarded by one magnificent portal- the famous Dinas Rock. Reprinted and revised August 2009.


Thanks Tony
Where can I get one please?

--

He told me 'I seem to eat batteries”. No wonder he has a bad stomach.
IP: 2.98.224.209
AR

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Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Knot far from Knotlow in the middle of the Peak District

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 13/03/2015 10:12:05
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Does Mike have a copy in stock?Devil

--

Oh God of Sarcasm, thanks for everything...
IP: 213.235.17.242
royfellows

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 13/03/2015 10:16:08
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I Googled it and didn't make a hit, I usually do with Mikes books.
I will try his site to make sure.

EDIT
No

--

He told me 'I seem to eat batteries”. No wonder he has a bad stomach.
IP: 2.98.224.209 Edited: 13/03/2015 10:17:50 by royfellows
Morlock

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 13/03/2015 13:50:03
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royfellows wrote:

I Googled it and didn't make a hit


http://www.rhigosmemories.org.uk/rhigosmemories2/RecentVisits/dinas/SychrydCavesAsm.jpg

Survey available at SWCC.
IP: 86.171.200.56
Moorebooks

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Joined: 28/11/2007
Location: Newport, Shropshire

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 13/03/2015 13:58:15
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royfellows wrote:

I Googled it and didn't make a hit, I usually do with Mikes books.
I will try his site to make sure.

EDIT
No


No sorry I didn't really stock Tony's books he does sometimes offer CD copies of them

Mike
IP: 77.103.102.25
ttxela

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Joined: 04/09/2007
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Posted: 13/03/2015 14:56:46
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I believe I have a copy somewhere......... IP: 62.232.28.82
royfellows

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 16/03/2015 21:37:53
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Natural Amenities Ltd

This company was incorporated on the 16th March 2015 as a private company limited by share capital, and as an associate company of CMT with CMT holding a 50% equity and a seat on the board.
The directors are Roy Fellows (Managing Director) and Cambrian Mines Trust (Corporate Director)

The sale of Bennett Forestry Mineral rights which includes the mine has been agreed to the above company and papers forwarded to solicitors from whom I await contact.
First contact was on a Tuesday, new company was incorporated on line on Friday and Companies House confirmed incorporation at 10.0 this morning.
Papers have been forwarded to solicitors and I await contact to arrange signing.

Access will remain unaffected and I am hopeful for the new company to work with NRW the landowners on an amicable basis.

The reason this route was taken was because I felt that a more risk efficient corporate structure was required.


--

He told me 'I seem to eat batteries”. No wonder he has a bad stomach.
IP: 2.98.224.209 Edited: 16/03/2015 21:42:47 by royfellows
exspelio

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Location: peak district

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Posted: 16/03/2015 23:32:16
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royfellows wrote:

Natural Amenities Ltd

This company was incorporated on the 16th March 2015 as a private company limited by share capital, and as an associate company of CMT with CMT holding a 50% equity and a seat on the board.
The directors are Roy Fellows (Managing Director) and Cambrian Mines Trust (Corporate Director)

The sale of Bennett Forestry Mineral rights which includes the mine has been agreed to the above company and papers forwarded to solicitors from whom I await contact.
First contact was on a Tuesday, new company was incorporated on line on Friday and Companies House confirmed incorporation at 10.0 this morning.
Papers have been forwarded to solicitors and I await contact to arrange signing.

Access will remain unaffected and I am hopeful for the new company to work with NRW the landowners on an amicable basis.

The reason this route was taken was because I felt that a more risk efficient corporate structure was required.


I really admire your 'adventurers' attitude Roy and we must all thank you for your efforts.

But I do worry for you from the point of view of liability.

--

Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.
IP: 217.43.155.128
rhychydwr

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Joined: 09/06/2007
Location: Cwmparc, Rhondda, South Wales, UK.

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 17/03/2015 07:51:30
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royfellows wrote:

rhychydwr wrote:

I thought someone would have asked:

THE CAVES AND MINES OF THE SYCHRHYD GORGE by Keith Jones April 1992 Part 9 in the series Limestones and Caves of South Wales. 32 pp 15 surveys and maps, colour frontis, 2 colour 3 B&W photographs / illustrations. This account presents detailed information on all the known caves and mines of the Sychrhyd Gorge. This enchantingly beautiful area is found at the head of the Vale of Neath, 3 kilometres north east of Glyn Neath near the village of Pont Nedd Fechan. The limestone gorge is 500 metres long and is located on the downstream end of the River Sychryd just before its confluence with the River Mellte, and is guarded by one magnificent portal- the famous Dinas Rock. Reprinted and revised August 2009.


Thanks Tony
Where can I get one please?


I can supply, but I am not sure you can afford the price Big Grin


--

Cutting coal in my spare time.
IP: 86.129.17.15
royfellows

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 17/03/2015 10:01:21
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A few things.
First thank you Tony for your very kind offer, email on the way to you.

Secondly, from some emails etc I can see a huge degree of misunderstanding, my choice of words does not help, I am getting a bad as a lot of others with it.

A private company limited by share capital is not a not-for-profit company, however limitation of liabilities by share capital is the only method by which there can be an ownership of the company. As can be seen I have divided ownership between myself and CMT, my own equity can always be transferred at a later date.

A company whose liabilities are limited by guarantee in effect does not have ownership at all, the subscribers merely guarantee to meet the companies debts if it rolls over up to a preset amount, usually something nominal such as £1 each. So as can be seen another company of this type would have been unsuitable for my purpose.

The liabilities are limited to the value of the shares which is the capital investment of the shareholders, and that is the limit of the shareholders liability. Directors are employees in the same way as the guy whose paid to clean the lavatories except that directors are the top level of management.

Now I considered that ownership of Dinas by CMT would be slightly unwise as CMT with donations, grazing income, and of course the prospective hydro scheme will certainly be well worth 'powder and shot' as they say in the legal profession, so, in the words of one of my fellow CMT directors, "an extra layer of insulation was required".

Now, for those who have had the patience to sit reading and pondering on this, here is a an interesting piece of mining history from my yet to be published book. It relates to The Welsh Potosi Company 1854 to 1857:

By 1857 they were bankrupt; hardly surprising as overall, they had spent more money on development than the value of ore sold. At Talybont they had only produced a miserable 11 tons of ore. One shareholder, a Thomas Clark, tried to recover through the courts £1700 he had paid for 340 shares “upon the grounds that he was induced to take them upon misrepresentation as to the manner in which the company was to be constituted and carried on”. He claimed the whole scheme was a fraud, the whole mine was not worth more than £1500, and that shares that had supposed to have formed part of the purchase of the mine had in fact been retained by the directors. He lost, regardless of the fact that the company had raised more capital than it had actually spent on development at any of the mines it owned. The actual winding up was to drag on for some time due to it being formed as a “Joint Stock Company” rather than a “Limited”, with some shareholders being found for greater liability than their holdings.



From the above two things emerge, first as the shareholders did not enjoy the benefit of limited liability they had to come up with more money to discharge the companies debts when it went bust. The other is that the limited company is the ideal vehicle for fraud.
Up to quite recently it has been common practice for individuals to form companies and run up increasing debts to suppliers while drawing handsome salaries as directors, and when the company goes bust just start up again under a different name. The Companies Act 2006 has attempted to address this by making a director personally liable for any debts he allows the company to accrue while knowing that the company is in fact insolvent. This is called "Insolvent trading".
He is also liable to any shareholder who looses money due to his or her malfeasance in office.

There is a third phenomena which is normally referred to as "the corporate veil", this actually means the challenge of sometimes ascertaining who actually owns what and who is running the show.
One of the best I have seen was two companies, part of a 'corporate structure' who actually owned each other!

Of course, there are honest men about, and I would like to believe that I am one of them.

--

He told me 'I seem to eat batteries”. No wonder he has a bad stomach.
IP: 2.98.224.209 Edited: 17/03/2015 10:05:53 by royfellows
rhychydwr

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Location: Cwmparc, Rhondda, South Wales, UK.

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 17/03/2015 10:06:39
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rhychydwr wrote:

royfellows wrote:

rhychydwr wrote:

I thought someone would have asked:

THE CAVES AND MINES OF THE SYCHRHYD GORGE by Keith Jones April 1992 Part 9 in the series Limestones and Caves of South Wales. 32 pp 15 surveys and maps, colour frontis, 2 colour 3 B&W photographs / illustrations. This account presents detailed information on all the known caves and mines of the Sychrhyd Gorge. This enchantingly beautiful area is found at the head of the Vale of Neath, 3 kilometres north east of Glyn Neath near the village of Pont Nedd Fechan. The limestone gorge is 500 metres long and is located on the downstream end of the River Sychryd just before its confluence with the River Mellte, and is guarded by one magnificent portal- the famous Dinas Rock. Reprinted and revised August 2009.


Thanks Tony
Where can I get one please?


I can supply, but I am not sure you can afford the price Big Grin


OK Roy Just send me a cheque for £30.00



--

Cutting coal in my spare time.
IP: 82.71.20.254
ttxela

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Posted: 17/03/2015 11:08:06
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Excellent stuff Roy Thumb Up you don't let the grass grow under your feet!

Have you visited the mine yet?
IP: 92.19.208.148
royfellows

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Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

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Posted: 17/03/2015 12:34:22
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No I haven't
I do need assess the situation from the standpoint of a moral duty of care.

As far as I can see there is a fence there to prevent accidental entry, so access to the underground workings has to be deliberate. I am unsure who installed the fence and if its being maintained, I consider this important.
I have an independent report from the vendor indicating that the main entrances in use are stable, and of course the main routes underground are inspected by a mining engineer for the benefit of the outdoor centres who use the place.

From what I see so far there is less inherent risk than Cwmystwyth, however the issue at Dinas is the large number and type of visitors to the mine. I also now understand that there has been some friction between employees of the landowner and underground visitors with intimidation becoming part of the equation. When I first heard of this I thought it was locals being funny.

I will need to establish a local support group and already have a volunteer from the CCC AGM on Sunday.

I am very much looking forward to a visit, I am going to try for next week or week after before I go away for Easter.

--

He told me 'I seem to eat batteries”. No wonder he has a bad stomach.
IP: 2.98.224.209
Morlock

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 17/03/2015 14:21:02
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royfellows wrote:


As far as I can see there is a fence there to prevent accidental entry, so access to the underground workings has to be deliberate. I am unsure who installed the fence and if its being maintained, I consider this important.


Probably the same people who installed the palisade fencing to prevent one of the dangerous traverses above the bottom of the waterfall.

Bottom left in image.
http://www.cavinguk.co.uk/holidays/NeddFechan2008/normal/Vines.jpg
IP: 86.191.15.147 Edited: 17/03/2015 14:26:13 by Morlock
royfellows

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Posted: 17/03/2015 14:35:43
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Looks a bit rusty, I suspect pre Tomlinson
Laugh

--

He told me 'I seem to eat batteries”. No wonder he has a bad stomach.
IP: 2.98.224.209
Morlock

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Posted: 17/03/2015 14:52:03
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royfellows wrote:

Looks a bit rusty, I suspect pre Tomlinson
Laugh


I'd guess within the last 15 years, can remember it new galvo, tarnished galvo and now appears painted green. The fencing was OK around the (7?) top entrances a few years back (on the vertical drop side anywayLaugh ).
IP: 86.191.15.147
Peter Burgess

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Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Posted: 17/03/2015 14:56:22
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The fencing across the main entrances near the river is, in effect, just standard stock fencing. You can simply step over it and walk into the mine.

--

The most useful idiot you can ever hope to meet...
IP: 82.69.118.115
royfellows

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Posted: 17/03/2015 15:29:35
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Peter Burgess wrote:

The fencing across the main entrances near the river is, in effect, just standard stock fencing. You can simply step over it and walk into the mine.


That's OK as long as there is a physical barrier to overcome, but it needs supplementing with appropriate notices "No Public Entry" so as denote trespass when the fence is crossed.
There is a batch of them being made up as we use them at Cwmystwyth and the laminated print outs I have been using don't last five minutes.

The object is to to reduce risk of public liability to that defined by the Occupiers Liability Act 1984 which was the plaintiff argument in Tomlinson V Congleton 2003.

Of course, anyone who wants 'permitted entry' where this is a requirement, such as NAMHO can apply for permission which would be granted subject to appropriate insurance such as BCA.

At least corporate law makes a change to lamps
Laugh

--

He told me 'I seem to eat batteries”. No wonder he has a bad stomach.
IP: 2.98.224.209
Peter Burgess

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 17/03/2015 15:38:33
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The popularity of the site and it's ease of access would suggest to me that any notices will disappear as quickly as cakes on dig nights.

--

The most useful idiot you can ever hope to meet...
IP: 82.69.118.115
royfellows

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Access at Craig Y Ddinas silica mine
Posted: 17/03/2015 15:49:56
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They haven't at Cymystwyth. It seems that as long as there is nothing to physically prevent access then visitors are happy to leave them alone. However, I am aware of the large footfall at this site.

I will be establishing a local support group who will be well stocked with notices.

I haven't visited the site yet but information I have suggests that the mine is not particularly dangerous.

--

He told me 'I seem to eat batteries”. No wonder he has a bad stomach.
IP: 2.98.224.209
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