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Author One for the steam buffs.
JohnnearCfon

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Joined: 22/12/2005
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Posted: 05/04/2011 12:21:58
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ICLOK wrote:

The initial liveries on BR were all captured in colour by BR but photos are rare and very much sought after. I don't mind the blue not being a purist.
The first BR black was actually Lnwr black but that was dropped to. There is a proposal to put a loco into this and I was told only last night the squabble had started as to what it actually looked like.



Penrhyn locos were painted the same shade of "black". Hidden away on the FR is one of Linda or Blanche's original back sheet still in original Penrhyn livery with lining. There was also an original Hunslet saddle tank (cut in half) in amongst the bushes near the quarry, but I have been told that has now gone. That too was still in lined "black".

I have a recording of a radio interview made in the 1930s in which Roland Emmett described LNWR black as being called "Blackberry Black".
IP: 92.26.183.224 Edited: 05/04/2011 13:03:19 by JohnnearCfon
Penrhynman

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Posted: 12/04/2011 09:06:39
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JohnnearCfon wrote:


Penrhyn locos were painted the same shade of "black". Hidden away on the FR is one of Linda or Blanche's original back sheet still in original Penrhyn livery with lining. There was also an original Hunslet saddle tank (cut in half) in amongst the bushes near the quarry, but I have been told that has now gone. That too was still in lined "black".

I have a recording of a radio interview made in the 1930s in which Roland Emmett described LNWR black as being called "Blackberry Black".


There were some photos of Penrhyn "Y Genod" on Fotopic showing them in their original Penrhyn livery in the early days at the Ffestiniog railway. Some were by Ron Fisher.

During the restoration of Edward Sholto, much research was carried out to get the black right. It seems that the famous Blackberry Black was, in fact, ordinary black with a large number of coats (6?) of a particular type of yellowish varnish on top.

Penrhynman
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derrickman

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Posted: 12/04/2011 12:16:58
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Morlock wrote:

ICLOK wrote:

Oooooh Nice..... don't think the purists are gonna like that colour!!! Laugh


IIRC there were death threats circulating when "Flying Scotsman" was allegedly the 'wrong' colour. Big Grin


I remember seeing this loco at Peterborough a few years ago, painted BR green and carrying 60103 and small "Bundesbahn" style smoke deflectors. I was most disappointed; to me it should be apple green and fully lined, carrying 4472 and NO elephant ears, because it looks quite magnificent that way ... and those who would quibble about various detail inconsistencies should get out in the fresh air a bit more often.

After all, it never ran in revenue service with two tenders or a huge electric headlamp...

Come to that, I think the recent "BR black" Lyd looks rather splendid too. There has been much controversy over this on some fora but I just think it looks rather grand that way. I'm not particularly convinced by the various arguments about the supposed BT number given that the VoR and W&LLR locos kept their original numbers, but who cares, really?





--

He knew the magic monotony of existence between sky and water: the criticism of men, the exactions of the sea, the prosaic severity of the daily task, because there is nothing more enticing, disenchanting, and enslaving than the life at sea.
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mikehiggins

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Posted: 12/04/2011 13:12:37
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GWR locos kept their original numbers as well, presumably because BR couldn't afford to replace all those brass number plates.

On a completely different tack, thank you derrickman for demonstrating the correct plural of forum!
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derrickman

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Posted: 12/04/2011 15:35:04
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there was much controversy on one board, about the actual numbers of the L&BR locos under SR ownership and the subsequent number given to Lyd.

I'd always thought that all ng locos inherited by BR kept their original numbers, and this is true; but if all GWR locos kept their original numbers then this doesn't really prove anything either way since all ng locos inherited by BR came from GWR ( ie the VoR and W&LLR locos, plus the Corris ones which probably never ran under BR ownership ).

The various colliery, dock and steelworks branch engines passed to the respective authorities kept any numbers they might have had before.


re forum/fora.... agenda is actually the plural of agendum, but I've never seen agendum used in English. Likewise the plural of apex, which I would assume to be apes ( pronounced ape-eez ) as opposed to apexes, but who knows? I've never known the term used in that connection, a roof or that sort being known as a northlight roof. I do know that when I was working on the reconstruction of Liverpool St Station in the late 80s, the features in the wall were referred to as gables in the contract specification.



--

He knew the magic monotony of existence between sky and water: the criticism of men, the exactions of the sea, the prosaic severity of the daily task, because there is nothing more enticing, disenchanting, and enslaving than the life at sea.
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droid

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Posted: 12/04/2011 19:54:35
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I always thought the plural of apex was apices IP: 81.108.217.215
mikehiggins

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Posted: 12/04/2011 21:56:59
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The OED gives the plural of apex as being either apices or apexes, similarly it says that for the plural of index you can have either indexes or indices. Seems wrong to me. Interestingly it doesn't give a plural for forum. I suspect that use of incorrect plurals has become so widespread these days that the OED has given up - it now includes such things as consortiums as well as consortia and stadiums as alternative to stadia. My old English teacher would turn in his grave!
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derrickman

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Posted: 13/04/2011 08:34:41
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I've never encountered apices or apexes, but the first seems consistent with index/indices or codex/codices, both of which are in use; whereas the second doesn't. Music uses the term coda for something which might more correctly be spelt codex, and the term codicil - meaning a specific addition to an existing body of documentation - survives as a legal term with no equivalents.

Indexes I've never heard used; it sounds quite dreadful and has the disadvantage of not actually being particularly pronounceable. I would always use stadia and consortia, if only from habit

Then again, English is notoriously inconsistent in its use of plural forms. House/houses vs mouse/mice is the best-known but there are many more. Some - such as dwarf/dwarfs or dwarves - seem to be accepted either way, and not so long ago the -oon or -en form was common in such words as hosen or shoon, but you never see or hear it now.

collective terms vary hugely; some bear no visible resemblance to the singular noun - a gaggle of geese; a flock of birds; but some have become words in their own right, such as military which was once used in the same manner as the still-occasionally-heard soldiery

OED has always included forms that come into use over time. Shakespeare wrote at a time when orthography was more a matter of opinion than fact - there is no record of his name, written by himself in its generally accepted modern form - and probably wouldn't recognise the modern form of his work, Mallory wouldn't be able to understand the modern form of Morte d'Arthur for all that it has, allegedly, never been out of print.

The King James Bible is readily recognisable but clearly not modern, and again differs considerably from what was actually written at the time.


Then again, there are words of no known etymology which are variously credited to whatever source seems expedient or desirable. Emmett was generally attributed at one time, to being a Cornish word meaning "ant" and applied to holidaymakers. A little research reveals that it has several possible Old English or Old German origins and meanings, but has no identifiable Celtic etymology. Grockle is even more obscure.

There are words like combe, which in spelling and pronounciation is clearly derived from the same root as the modern Welsh word cwm. There are words like guarantee and warranty, which are variants of the same older word which have remained side-by-side with much the same meaning. There are bizarre neo-Welshisms like egsosts and siocs, seen lettered on ATS and Kwikfit forecourts in some parts of the Principality.


I think that on the whole, the only useful conclusion on the matter was expressed by the late, great Dr Johnson, who when not occupied berating anyone originating North of Nottingham, entered the following in his masterwork;

Lexicographer: a writer of dictionaries, a harmless drudge, that busies himself in tracing the original, and detailing the signification of words

signification does not appear in the OED....








--

He knew the magic monotony of existence between sky and water: the criticism of men, the exactions of the sea, the prosaic severity of the daily task, because there is nothing more enticing, disenchanting, and enslaving than the life at sea.
IP: 212.33.146.218 Edited: 13/04/2011 08:40:23 by derrickman
mikehiggins

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Posted: 13/04/2011 10:33:56
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Yes, the beauty of language is that it is a living entity that changes and develops over time - stagnation is not to be desired in anything. But I still can't help cringeing a little when I see "forums"! IP: 81.158.220.49
Roy Morton

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Posted: 14/04/2011 01:30:38
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I know we are wandering off topic here, the original topic that is, but the plural that really gets up my nose is the one concerning our lowest coin of the realm.
The number of people referring to a single penny as one pence
leads me instantly into red rag and bull territory.
I recently heard an ITV newscaster use it with reference to the price of petrol....!!!!!
Hiss spit GRRRRRRR! Cursing Cursing Cursing Cursing
Guns Guns


--

'Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear'
IP: 109.156.228.114 Edited: 14/04/2011 01:34:33 by Roy Morton
derrickman

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Posted: 14/04/2011 07:17:22
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this is an interesting one, if you find that sort of thing interesting that is.

When the decimal currency was introduced, it was specifically referred to as "new pence" and the officially favoured usage was "one new pence, two new pence etc" . If you were handling money at the time ( and I grew up working in small businesses, mainly newsagents ) you did this to remind people of the difference. However "new pence" was a bit long and rapidly contracted to "pence" or simply "pee" or "p"

around the same time the expression "what's that in Lsd" meaning "what are the implications of that for me" or "how much of that do I need to know" was replaced by the expression "what's that in real money"

evolution of the language in action, autre temps, autre moeurs.

however to get back towards the original subject, this wouldn't happen now. Look at the strident promotion of politically correct BS which has infested much of the press, for example. Similarly, we wouldn't have such place-names as "Linda's Leap" or "Blanche's Bump" because Elf'n'Safety would have prevented locos of similar but under-size gauge being run on trains in the first place





--

He knew the magic monotony of existence between sky and water: the criticism of men, the exactions of the sea, the prosaic severity of the daily task, because there is nothing more enticing, disenchanting, and enslaving than the life at sea.
IP: 212.33.146.218 Edited: 14/04/2011 07:21:39 by derrickman
mikehiggins

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Posted: 14/04/2011 15:30:25
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Strangely, I was running a newsagency business when decimalisation was thrust upon us, and we were indeed encouraged at the time to talk in terms of one pence, two pence etc. However, Roy is absolutely right, the clincher being that the coin itself reads "one penny". IP: 81.158.220.49
JohnnearCfon

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Posted: 14/04/2011 16:32:27
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mikehiggins wrote:

Strangely, I was running a newsagency business when decimalisation was thrust upon us, and we were indeed encouraged at the time to talk in terms of one pence, two pence etc. However, Roy is absolutely right, the clincher being that the coin itself reads "one penny".


Now they do, but what did they read when first introduced? I know they had "new" on the coin, but were they "one new penny", or "one new pence"? The latter certainly sounds wrong.
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Bill L

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Posted: 14/04/2011 17:02:35
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apex pl. apices cf. kleenex kleenices IP: 94.192.125.104
Bill L

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Posted: 14/04/2011 17:11:21
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or even 'kleeneces.
many years ago i used to attend meetings chaired by a very elderly academic gentleman - about the age I am now - I suspect - who would always refer to agenda items as 'agendum three' etc.
Blush
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Peter Burgess

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Posted: 14/04/2011 17:59:00
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JohnnearCfon wrote:

Now they do, but what did they read when first introduced? I know they had "new" on the coin, but were they "one new penny", or "one new pence"? The latter certainly sounds wrong.


I think it just said "New Penny". The "1" was a number in the centre of the coin. I think. I remember a time when it was decided that the word "New" wasn't appropriate any more.

I'm sure Google will have an answer somewhere!

--

Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
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Peter Burgess

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Posted: 14/04/2011 18:00:29
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Here it is....



Smartass

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Peter Burgess

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Posted: 14/04/2011 18:02:43
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... and I continue to use the word "tuppence" - everyone seems to know what I mean.. Smile

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JohnnearCfon

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Posted: 14/04/2011 18:03:52
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Peter Burgess wrote:

... and I continue to use the word "tuppence" - everyone seems to know what I mean.. Smile


As in Tommy and Tuppence? Laugh
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Roy Morton

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Posted: 14/04/2011 18:47:23
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Bill L wrote:

apex pl. apices cf. kleenex kleenices


Thank goodness there was only one Jimmy Hendrix ! Laugh

--

'Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear'
IP: 109.156.228.114
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