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Mine Exploration Forum

Author Smallcleugh
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Smallcleugh
Posted: 01/03/2011 15:31:08
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Hi All

Smallcleugh mine the names of the flats rises and sumps are these recent as in the last 30-40 years.
Or are these a mixture of old and new re (new) Wheel flats, (New) Old Fan Flats, (New) Incline Flats, etc.
Any update would be appreciated.
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Mr Mike

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 01/03/2011 17:08:13
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All the rises and sumps will be original, except for maybe Hydraulic Shaft near the Ballroom, this just may have been named this because of the pipe work in it.

I have seen a number of original plans by the London Lead company and they don't particularly have names for the flats, apart from the odd few.

I guess, that Wheel Flats is new due to the wheels there, Ballroom Flat because of what took place there.

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RJV

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 01/03/2011 18:04:25
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That was my take on it though its hard to imagine that the various flats wouldn't have had names during the working period of the mine.

"Those flats down there a bit" doesn't really seem a precise enough term if you're giving somebody instructions or suchlike.

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Rich
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Mr Mike

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 01/03/2011 18:15:40
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On LLC plan 1822, the whole string of flats on the Handsome Mea Great Cross Vein is just referred to as Smallcleugh Flats, which covers the current North End Flats, Incline Flats unnamed, probably as only the first part was only mined then. There is also Whit Hudson's Flat, near Wheel Flats, and that's it.

No names on any flats on the Longcleugh Mine section of Smallcleugh either.

I can't help thinking that maybe a lot of the current names, High Zinc, Incline, North End, Wheel Flats are from names maybe given by the first explorers in the late 60's, early 70's, as per plans done by John Lawson and Peter Jackson - come on Pete shed some light...



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IP: 79.70.76.182 Edited: 01/03/2011 18:20:14 by Mr Mike
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Smallcleugh
Posted: 01/03/2011 18:25:48
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Its as I also belived thanks for all your replys.
The moden day names were all called as per the vein there associated with I think ?
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moorlandmineral

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 01/03/2011 18:36:31
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I seem to remember an old plan that had what is now known as Wheel Flatt marked as Browns Flatt. It was an ancient thing from the MRO. IP: 86.131.201.33
John Lawson

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 01/03/2011 22:24:51
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All the sumps on the main horse level are taken from the various abandonment plans.Very few of the flats are named as Robert said the earliest detailed plan we have is the one put on by Sparty Lea which must date from around 1830 as the two parts of the flat drivage are shown as having met in 27th Oct 1823.
The only flats we can know are correctly named are:Hethrington's flat which commenced at the 1st.Sun Vein end towards the Flats and the area around the end of it which Robert mentioned is called Brown's Flat.
In 1815 they were working an area in the flats close to the stone bridge which was called Robert Whartons flat.
My guess is that because the Flats were worked over such a long period their names simply got lost- we are talking about a period of over 120 years. Or perhaps they were simply too big!
This is in direct contrast to most of East Greenlaws where the majority of the Flats were named with at least 2 exceptions which we gave appropriate names to.
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derrickman

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 02/03/2011 20:17:41
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having recently done the Abandonment Plans at Combe Down, most of the names used there were derived from landowners who had subsequently made use of the area, often as builder's yards or landfill sites, or as the current road names.

Little was known of the earlier names.

It's important to remember that in a complex system worked over a long period of time, the area actually in use at any given time might be quite limited, and so there would be little requirement for names. Earlier names might well have been lost or misapplied during periods when work was not current.



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He knew the magic monotony of existence between sky and water: the criticism of men, the exactions of the sea, the prosaic severity of the daily task, because there is nothing more enticing, disenchanting, and enslaving than the life at sea.
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PeteJ

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 04/03/2011 17:11:55
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I invented most of the flat names when the amateur surveys were started around 1963. The idea of names was to help people navigate round the mine - Eric Richardson started the idea by naming the Wheel Flats and we just carried on. As John has said, there are also some names in documents, but most of the flats are not known to have names from the time of the working. We also have some flat names recorded from the Nenthead and Tynedale LZ Co days which are difficult to place but are probably the High Flat workings near to the new fan flats. The Hydraulic Shaft was named in 1963 based on a legend recounted by Harris Thompson - but I always have doubted that this is the shaft of the legend! Harris' father had worked for the VM at the "Hydraulic shaft" and had allegedly found a rich vein of blende which he concealed from the Company. He walled up the exposure, intending to return, but the mine then closed. If the name "hydraulic shaft" was a working miners name, then perhaps we could speculate that this could be Boggs shaft, which was presumably used up to 1922. the other candidate was Middlecleugh Sump, but this was clearly stripped of all equipment before closure. IP: 213.106.45.184
PeteJ

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 04/03/2011 17:20:46
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William Wallace also mentions some flats and veins which I have not yet been able to place. Still trying. Worth noting that the LLCo sometimes named the working sections of stopes as (eg) "John Lawson's section" but these names didn't seem to carry onto the plans and were forgotten over time. I guess that the working miners might have still used the names when describing the mines. The last rise in the Gudhamgill reworking of 1936-7 was known by the retired miners as "Edwins Rise" because it was driven by Edwin Rutherford. IP: 213.106.45.184
staffordshirechina

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 04/03/2011 18:16:24
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From memory wasn't there a Transvaal Sump in Guddamgill ?
It connected the Guddamgill level with the flats horizon and then down to Brownley Hill level.
Presumably they were driving it during the Boer war?

Les
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PeteJ

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 04/03/2011 18:37:15
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Right about the name. Can someone else comment on the link to the Boer war period? IP: 213.106.45.184
John Lawson

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 04/03/2011 21:37:36
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It is also pretty clear from Wallace's writings and others that the miners followed small leads or strings as they intersected the Main flats and depending on their richness or otherwise these were opened out.
E.g. In 1821 we have the following comment "where Capelcleugh North Vein should have crossed ( Smallcleugh Cross Vein- presumed), they discovered a small string,little better than a joint which they called Gully Back, being little wider than a Butchers's Knife ."
When the explorers accessed this part of the mine, it was blocked but had been widened up to a major cross cut to the Flats.This is now known as the Gully Back Cross cut but could easily be called Gully Back String.
I think that since the new names have been used by us for over 45 years unless more documentary evidence turns up we must use their accepted names.
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derrickman

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 04/03/2011 21:59:52
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PeteJ wrote:

Right about the name. Can someone else comment on the link to the Boer war period?


no specific information but it was common during that period to use names of that sort. The Tal-y-Llyn Railway has a loco which was renamed "Pretoria" for some years at the time.

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He knew the magic monotony of existence between sky and water: the criticism of men, the exactions of the sea, the prosaic severity of the daily task, because there is nothing more enticing, disenchanting, and enslaving than the life at sea.
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Ty Gwyn

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Smallcleugh
Posted: 04/03/2011 23:28:41
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derrickman wrote:

PeteJ wrote:

Right about the name. Can someone else comment on the link to the Boer war period?


no specific information but it was common during that period to use names of that sort. The Tal-y-Llyn Railway has a loco which was renamed "Pretoria" for some years at the time.


The Swansea and Neath Valley`s have several names from war time periods,
There`s a Crimea Pit in Godregraig,
And a Pretoria seam of Coal in Cilybebyll
Certain Districts in the Nixon-Clydach Merthyr Colliery were named after Generals in the Boer War
And a Drift in the Glyn neath area ,not far from Aberpergwm,also named from the Boer War,the name slips me
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