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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author Securing abandoned mines against entry
jagman

Joined: 11/03/2007

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Posted: 19/11/2010 14:46:05
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derrickman wrote:

unfortunately, not so.





According to the lawyers of a very large mine owning company within the UK fences and signs are sufficient to cover duty of care.
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Morlock

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Joined: 31/07/2008

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 19/11/2010 15:42:06
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jagman wrote:

derrickman wrote:

unfortunately, not so.





According to the lawyers of a very large mine owning company within the UK fences and signs are sufficient to cover duty of care.


The definition of a 'fence' seem to vary widely. Big Grin
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droid

Joined: 31/10/2010
Location: Tamworth

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Posted: 19/11/2010 17:18:12
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From what I've seen on Bradwell Moor it includes a sheet of corrugated iron and a couple of dead sheep.... Big Grin IP: 81.108.217.215
Morlock

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 19/11/2010 17:37:06
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droid wrote:

From what I've seen on Bradwell Moor it includes a sheet of corrugated iron and a couple of dead sheep.... Big Grin


Think I prefer the Coal Authority palisade fencing over the dead sheep option. Big Grin
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Tamarmole

Joined: 20/05/2009
Location: Tamar Valley

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Posted: 19/11/2010 18:04:29
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Steel Pallisade fencing seems to be the preferred option of HM Inspectorate of Mines, most if not all of the Inspectors coming from a coal back ground.

Wearing my mine managers hat my approach is to prevent all unauthorised access to the limited number of disused workings I am responsible for. Where appropriate this may include locked gates. The secret to keeping locked gates locked and indeed preventing unauthorised ingress is to operate a reasonable access policy. By reasonable I mean allowing controled access to bona fide mine explorers and by bona fide I mean BCA insured.

Wearing my mine explorers hat.... in an ideal world nothing should be gated. However...... real world I feel that it is appropriate to take measures to prevent unintentional access so gates with bolts are ok, locked gates are ok provided that keys are readily available. Shaft fencing is ok provided that it is sturdy enough to attach a rope to.

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derrickman

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Securing abandoned mines against entry
Posted: 20/11/2010 08:00:26
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Morlock wrote:

jagman wrote:

derrickman wrote:

unfortunately, not so.



According to the lawyers of a very large mine owning company within the UK fences and signs are sufficient to cover duty of care.


The definition of a 'fence' seem to vary widely. Big Grin


this is actually quite a large subject. Ease of immediate access and frequency of known or perceived entries are a factor.

a small access on a remote moor, and a large portal known to be frequented by chavs posting the results on youtube, tend to attract different solutions
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staffordshirechina

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Posted: 20/11/2010 09:38:52
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Tamarmole,
As I understand it, all mining inspectors require an MQB Class 1 (Managers) certificate of competence so it is impossible to get an inspector without a coal background. Any other experience is a bonus but these days fairly unlikely. At one time the mining inspectors even did quarries too.
From experience, coal industry people tend to disregard all other forms of mining as somehow inferior, even though they have little knowledge of them. I have never worked out exactly when this attitude was developed. Historically, mining engineers seemed to work in any type of mine interchangably. I wonder if it started with 1947 nationalisation and the separation of private/public mines?
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gt5952

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Joined: 08/07/2010
Location: Swansea

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Posted: 20/11/2010 10:27:04
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The problem with the Brick and a tonne of concrete is that is prevents the natural life found in a mine, i.e. Bats, and as we found and saw recently, Otters.

The CA Are perhaps more sympathetic to this now, whereas clearly there was a time where (Perhaps under its Forerunner) they were not... Hence why so much is inaccesable.

On this note, where do these rather nice gates come from (a la Ystrad Einon)?

Clearly a form of control can only be a good thing to help preserve sites from the people who lurk in the background on sites like this, searching for intel, before entering wearing a shell suit and holding a lighter...

All thats needed to cause a mass concreting knee jerk reaction is a "Pearl Harbour" event, where several inexperienced fruit bats do a rapid descent without a rope....

Id be open to the idea of welding some gates up, and posting a key with a control person, i.e., a designated local with a sign in / out process...

Takes the edge off it for some yes, but theres some little sites Im looking at which would cause me to cry should they be heavily capped....

--

'FOR SALE: 1 Kidney and Half a Lung. If the Traffic Warden comes back to my car again, I can get more bits... As pants as this world is, its the best place in the universe when I look at my son.'
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derrickman

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Posted: 20/11/2010 15:58:03
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staffordshirechina wrote:

Tamarmole,
As I understand it, all mining inspectors require an MQB Class 1 (Managers) certificate of competence so it is impossible to get an inspector without a coal background. Any other experience is a bonus but these days fairly unlikely. At one time the mining inspectors even did quarries too.
From experience, coal industry people tend to disregard all other forms of mining as somehow inferior, even though they have little knowledge of them. I have never worked out exactly when this attitude was developed. Historically, mining engineers seemed to work in any type of mine interchangably. I wonder if it started with 1947 nationalisation and the separation of private/public mines?


It is largely the result of the 'closed shop' brought in as a result, to a considerable extent as the price, of nationalisation. This had the effect of closing off the interchange which formerly took place, especially of people who had worked overseas at some time.

Contractors were abused as 'job-selling bastards' and then told in the same breath that they had no 'right' to work in the industry because the union had the 'right' to exclude them in favour of those it saw fit to prefer.

It's quite true that in the foreseeable future, the dinosaurs clinging to the past in their offices will be gone and the whole system will necessarily fall into disuse, because it has no means of renewing its personnel.

The MIQB no longer has the ability to conduct its own exams - IoM3 do it on their behalf - and the required experience to formally qualify is simply not available. Mine Surveyors - my own discipline - qualify as isolated individuals at intervals of years for this reason. However CSM now has a 'Mine Surveyors' module, and in the foreseeable future there will be mining surveyors qualified as RICS without reference to MIQB, and there is no real reason why any mine other than a coal mine could care less.

British Gypsum have long since ceased to use the MIQB syllabus as a test of competence, because it hasn't been updated since the 1980s.

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NewStuff

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Joined: 26/07/2010
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Posted: 20/11/2010 18:58:53
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This thread has veered into something I am quite interested in doing. What, as a rough guide, would I need to qualify as a Mines inspector? where can I get the qualifications? I have had a Google around, but All I seem to find are overseas jobs advertisements.

--

In your mines, Taking your pictures...
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Ty Gwyn

Joined: 30/10/2009
Location: Lampeter

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Posted: 20/11/2010 19:14:00
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I would imagine a good number of years underground experience,
One has to have 5yrs underground experience before becoming a Deputy,that is in the Coal Industry.
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staffordshirechina

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Joined: 15/11/2009
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Posted: 20/11/2010 19:50:00
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Newstuff, sadly I doubt whether under the existing system you could ever qualify as an inspector now.
You would need an MQB Manager's ticket for class A coal mines which took around 8 years or so to get previously. Plus several years experience at a large working coal mine at least under-manager level.
Even if you could find somewhere to do the practical training required, I don't think anywhere does a degree with a coal mining bias now in the UK.
Somewhere filed away I have the full training specification for coal mine managers, plus all the certificates if you are really interested?
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NewStuff

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Posted: 20/11/2010 21:36:37
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I am indeed interested. Although 8 years in Coal is a longer slog than I envisaged.

My big question is, as few and far between as Coal mines are these days, surely a new system will have to be introduced? Not every mine that needs inspection is Coal, so how are you expected to gain the relevant practical experience in addition to the theoretical learning that would obviously complement it?

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In your mines, Taking your pictures...
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Ty Gwyn

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Posted: 20/11/2010 22:34:22
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I believe there is something in motion to address the lack of officials,its been drawn up between the Mines Inspectorate,Mines Rescue and the Cambourn school of mines in Cornwall.
What experience in Mines do you have at present?
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ttxela

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Joined: 04/09/2007
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Posted: 20/11/2010 22:50:41
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Tamarmole wrote:


Wearing my mine managers hat my approach is to prevent all unauthorised access to the limited number of disused workings I am responsible for. Where appropriate this may include locked gates. The secret to keeping locked gates locked and indeed preventing unauthorised ingress is to operate a reasonable access policy. By reasonable I mean allowing controled access to bona fide mine explorers and by bona fide I mean BCA insured.




I thought you did it by filling them waist deep with orange goo Big Grin
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NewStuff

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Posted: 20/11/2010 23:29:16
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Not a huge amount, only exploring, and so far, only slate. This will, regardless of job possibilities, expand as rapidly as possible, short of causing me be suddenly single.

--

In your mines, Taking your pictures...
IP: 86.143.17.65
derrickman

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Posted: 21/11/2010 07:49:46
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again, quite a large subject. However, the short answer is that you can't. The Coal Board veterans who control the relevant department so interpret the legislation.

Of course, the experience they insist is the only possible combination is for all practical purposes, not available.

This has lead to the situation whereby IoM3, CSM and the relevant statutory bodies are looking at a new structure. However this will all have to go through Parliament and be embodied into legislation, and there are enough veterans still about for the NCB 'old hands' to maintain their grip on the much-diminished industry for some years to come.

Of course, other than for coal and fireclay mines, you don't need a Mine Managers' Certificate at all. One of the Mine Managers at Combe Down didn't have one, and had been Underground Manager at Wheal Jane at one time.

British Gypsum employ surveying and management personnel with and without such qualifications, as they see fit.

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NewStuff

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Posted: 21/11/2010 18:06:27
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derrickman wrote:

Of course, other than for coal and fireclay mines, you don't need a Mine Managers' Certificate at all. One of the Mine Managers at Combe Down didn't have one, and had been Underground Manager at Wheal Jane at one time.


Just the kind of answer I was looking for. Happily, I'd rather not work in a Coal or Fireclay mine unless I have to. Is there any relevant experience I can gain, or training I can undertake that would make this easier?

--

In your mines, Taking your pictures...
IP: 86.143.17.65
staffordshirechina

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Joined: 15/11/2009
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Posted: 21/11/2010 18:36:58
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The big question is what level you wish to work at in the mining industry?
Do you want to gain qualifications as a mining engineer to be able to work in mine management?
Do you want to simply work as a miner?
Or do you want somewhere in between in which case you will need to start as a miner?
At a slight tangent, do you want to become a mining surveyor or mechanical/electrical worker?
Are you young/older? With A levels or not?
Almost certainly you would need to move to a mining area to find any of the above work.
Several different career paths are available but they have different routes.

Give us some background and some of us can give you possible routes.
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NewStuff

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Posted: 21/11/2010 19:28:29
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staffordshirechina wrote:

Do you want to gain qualifications as a mining engineer to be able to work in mine management?


Yes, This is largely what I had in mind.

staffordshirechina wrote:

Do you want to simply work as a miner?


Not unless I have to, I am under no romantic illusions as to how hard the job is as a miner.

staffordshirechina wrote:

At a slight tangent, do you want to become a mining surveyor or mechanical/electrical worker?


Very Possibly, I would likely have a good start on this, having an engineering background, albeit a while ago.

staffordshirechina wrote:

Are you young/older? With A levels or not?


Young-ish, early 30's. No A Levels, but I can pass any test Math's, English or other similar test put in front of me. This is not an idle fancy, but something I have put a fair bit of thought into.

--

In your mines, Taking your pictures...
IP: 86.143.17.65
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