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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author Access at Nenthead
PaulatNent

Joined: 27/02/2009
Location: Nenthead

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Access at Nenthead
Posted: 22/09/2010 14:42:05
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The North Pennines Heritage Trust has updated the underground access arrangements for mines on the Nenthead Mines Scheduled Monument.
Details can be found at -

[web link]

If you have any queries contact details are-
Paul Mercer, Education Officer. Tel 01434 382037
Email: mines@npht.com

The Trust also has a discussion forum at
[web link] Please also make use of this to contact or discuss arrangements with the Trust community
IP: 95.148.11.67 Edited: 22/09/2010 14:59:26 by (moderator)
Jimbo

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Joined: 30/03/2007
Location: Ooop North

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Access at Nenthead
Posted: 22/09/2010 16:08:55
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" 4. The Nenthead Mines site is open to visitors and is adjacent to houses in the village of Nenthead. NPHT has therefore arranged for all mine entrances to be locked with a Nenthead Mine Lock. (DN: metric bolt). These locks have been installed in order to discharge the Trust’s responsibilities for the Health and safety of visitors to the site. All mine entrance gates may be opened with a Nenthead Mine Key (DN: Nenthead key will be a metric spanner – exact size being determined). Gates should be locked whilst a group is underground.
Middlecleugh, Thompson’s and Hodgson’s High Levels will be locked for the time being, until the Trust completes archaeological surveys of these areas. If you are interested in helping with this work, please contact the Trust. "

I can see locked gates at Nent causing all sorts of problems/annoyance for exploreres who have been visiting the mines freely for years, no spanner=no access. Nothing wrong with the present gates IMHO, some people just don't like locked gates Wink

Discuss (nicely) Big Grin
IP: 212.183.140.54
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Posted: 22/09/2010 16:37:23
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If all you need to open the gates is a spanner, then I would hardly call them "locked". Secured would be a more appropriate (and acceptable?) word.

--

Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
IP: 94.193.19.239
ChrisJC

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Joined: 13/10/2007
Location: Northants

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Access at Nenthead
Posted: 22/09/2010 16:51:33
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Peter Burgess wrote:

If all you need to open the gates is a spanner, then I would hardly call them "locked". Secured would be a more appropriate (and acceptable?) word.


The point being Peter is that the various official bodies can be reassured that the gates are locked rather than just secured.
Thus if locked is the 'required' word, then locked it must be, even if 'secured' is more accurate.

Compare with Northern Ireland and the Decommissioned vs Beyond Use semantics.

Chris.
IP: 90.152.39.96
RJV

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Joined: 16/03/2008
Location: Cleveland

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Access at Nenthead
Posted: 22/09/2010 17:18:03
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Apart perhaps from people off for a potter to the Ballroom, most groups will probably have an adjustable spanner anyway so can't see it being too much of an issue.

Which is the Hangingshaw Engine Shaft incidentally? The one between Smallcleugh Dam and Smallcleugh?



--

Rich
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PeteJ

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Posted: 22/09/2010 17:27:28
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Yes - has a locked grid and wall around. Comes down into the flat workings at the Smallcleugh and Hangingshaw vein intersection. IP: 213.106.45.184
royfellows

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Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

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Posted: 22/09/2010 17:41:37
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Just read your document, Peter are you reading this?

BCA insurance is NOT 'third party', its 'public liability' which means something entirely different.

I see this over and over and can only feel a basic lack of understanding of these matters in some quarters.

Suggest you amend your documentation ASAP

Apart from this I see no problems with the new arrangements, its basically similar to arrangements in Derbyshire, however the 'Derbyshire' spanner is 1/2 inch AF. This is same as 13mm.


--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change
IP: 84.13.96.36
jagman

Joined: 11/03/2007

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Posted: 22/09/2010 18:15:19
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I hope NPHT has a substantial budget for new gates. IP: 90.207.149.57
jagman

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Posted: 22/09/2010 18:17:56
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royfellows wrote:

Just read your document, Peter are you reading this?

BCA insurance is NOT 'third party', its 'public liability' which means something entirely different.

I see this over and over and can only feel a basic lack of understanding of these matters in some quarters.

Suggest you amend your documentation ASAP

Apart from this I see no problems with the new arrangements, its basically similar to arrangements in Derbyshire, however the 'Derbyshire' spanner is 1/2 inch AF. This is same as 13mm.


Nothing wrong with it other than a requirement for meaningless insurance and charging an access fee.....
IP: 90.207.149.57
royfellows

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Access at Nenthead
Posted: 22/09/2010 18:46:42
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Mr Jags
The Trust in all likelihood has no choice on this.

There are health and safety rules relative to the visiting members of the public as well as probable requirements of the Trusts insurers.
Frankly, I am surprised that this has not had to be done before.

As a point of interest, now that I am recovered from my illness I am resuming negotiations with regard to the possible purchase of the Cwmystwyth mines, and have just prepared a letter to the Crown Estates.

My scheme would involve the fitting of combination locks to all the mine entrances. The combinations would be freely available to anyone with either BCA public liability insurance, or anyone who signed a legal liability indemnity to the trust that I would form.

Please note legal liability indemnity, not disclaimer.

I gave a lot of thought to this matter and this was the best scheme that I could come up with.

My Legal Liability Indemnity is carefully drawn as copy is available to anyone for their own purposes.


--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change
IP: 84.13.96.36
jagman

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Posted: 22/09/2010 18:56:25
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royfellows wrote:

Mr Jags
The Trust in all likelihood has no choice on this.

There are health and safety rules relative to the visiting members of the public as well as probable requirements of the Trusts insurers.
Frankly, I am surprised that this has not had to be done before.

As a point of interest, now that I am recovered from my illness I am resuming negotiations with regard to the possible purchase of the Cwmystwyth mines, and have just prepared a letter to the Crown Estates.

My scheme would involve the fitting of combination locks to all the mine entrances. The combinations would be freely available to anyone with either BCA public liability insurance, or anyone who signed a legal liability indemnity to the trust that I would form.

Please note legal liability indemnity, not disclaimer.

I gave a lot of thought to this matter and this was the best scheme that I could come up with.

My Legal Liability Indemnity is carefully drawn as copy is available to anyone for their own purposes.


Yes they do have a choice Roy. However, I have said my piece and shall leave it at that.
IP: 90.207.149.57
skippy

Joined: 30/03/2008
Location: Shropshire

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Access at Nenthead
Posted: 22/09/2010 19:10:11
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Thin end of the wedge - bureaucratic bulldust. Difference between lifting a bloody great heavy gate and unscrewing a bolt - zero. Next will be locks and keys. Get your angle grinders out guys..



--

The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth
... but not the Mineral Rights...
IP: 91.84.15.191
royfellows

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Posted: 22/09/2010 19:20:25
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I am trying to post on this on 2 bloody sites, anyway.

Look, as I have just said on ME, arrangements have to be reasonable, because if they become unreasonable, that is when the gas axes come out.

Thin end of the wedge? No, wont work. Anyway, I trust these guys, I know a lot of them personally.

Do you all trust me?
Well read my Cwmystwyth posting.

--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change
IP: 84.13.96.36
skippy

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Posted: 22/09/2010 19:25:58
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What wont work?

Anyway - trust you, Roy, mmmm... not sure about that...
Good luck with cwmystwyth - friend of mine is vicar around there, and tells some amazing stories about the old times that locals have told him - I need to get them down on paper - maybe should put you in touch with him..

Pete

--

The Meek Shall Inherit The Earth
... but not the Mineral Rights...
IP: 91.84.15.191
royfellows

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Access at Nenthead
Posted: 22/09/2010 19:49:19
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skippy wrote:



Anyway - trust you, Roy, mmmm... not sure about that...

Pete


Laugh Laugh Laugh

--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change
IP: 84.13.96.36
PeteJ

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Access at Nenthead
Posted: 22/09/2010 21:56:06
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Roy

Thanks for the point - taken. We will look again at the wording.

IP: 213.106.45.184
moorlandmineral

Joined: 08/12/2007

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Posted: 22/09/2010 23:00:27
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Speaking as someone who has known Peter Jackson for 23 years, I have complete confidence in his track record in facilitating open access at the mines in Nenthead. If the price of access to the mines is taking a spanner with you, better that than having to deal with the consequences of another fatality in the mines, especially if the unwary, inept or ill-prepared can simply shuffle under an easily opened gate. It's surprising how the fuss stirred up in the 80's when an unfortunate plunged headfirst down the sump near the branch off of the main level in Smallcleugh is not mentioned here. At the time it was headline news for the BBC's regional news Look North, viewers were treated to the late Eric Richardson no less calling for the mines to be blocked up. The general consensus at the time was that the council would end up being railroaded into permanently blocking access to the mines. Thankfully this never happened, in due course the fuss died down. We now live in far more litigious times. A repeat of these events I suspect would bring intolerable pressure on the Trust. Let's refrain from references to 'Gas axes' and work with the Heritage Trust on this one IP: 86.131.122.92
AR

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Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Knot far from Knotlow in the middle of the Peak District

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Access at Nenthead
Posted: 23/09/2010 08:40:24
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To my mind, any gate which is fastened with a bolt that requires a spanner to open is not locked, it is secured against casual entry. Given the number of gated entrances/shaft tops you can get into in Derbyshire using a spanner, or the sites where you pay a couple of quid trespass fee to cross the land to get to them, all without any problems beyond the occasional idiot* and the inevitable griping on UK Caving, I really don't see any problem at all with what NHPT are doing. This isn't the thin end of any wedge, this is NPHT satisfying their legal duty to prevent the mines being a public nuisance as well as asking for a small contribution towards the running costs of Nenthead from those gaining enjoyment through exploration of the mines.

* - if I find out who the idiot was that pried the lid off the Maury sough shaft earlier this year rather than undoing the bolts, I'm going to try and find out what's inside their head by similar means...... Guns

--

I sold my soul to Satan, but he brought it back and demanded a refund....
IP: 194.159.145.70
moorlandmineral

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Posted: 23/09/2010 09:08:31
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Well said AR....
There are those at Nenthead who would see the entrances to the mines 'caved in', I have actually had been told this by on 2 or 3 occasions. There are in a tiny minority, but as with any minority grouping they will use any excuse to promote their views. NPHT is simply showing a duty of care to the general public. It's a shame that Adit Now was not available at the time of the fatality in Smallcleugh, in addition to being a platform for discussion, this site allows for the recording of events real time, and could help (hopefully) 20-30 years down the line the next generations understanding of events in our current time.
As for our obligations as visitors to the mines, we must not prejudice access for future generations to these fantastic workings. If NPHT wish us to carry spanners, lets do them the courtesy....
Simply talking about 'Gas Axes' as being a way to get into a blocked mine makes a basic assumption that any attempt to seal the mines would involve a gate. There are far more permanent ways......
IP: 86.131.122.92
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Posted: 23/09/2010 09:13:09
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moorlandmineral wrote:

Simply talking about 'Gas Axes' as being a way to get into a blocked mine makes a basic assumption that any attempt to seal the mines would involve a gate. There are far more permanent ways......


And it hands more ammunition on a plate to that tiny minority you mentioned ......

--

Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
IP: 81.144.191.248 Edited: 23/09/2010 09:13:39 by Peter Burgess
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