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Author Box Loco - Question
SimonRL

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 25/06/2009 23:15:45
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Final emailed question for today.

Regarding the box loco, can anybody advise the gauge or provide any further historical information?



(click image to open full size image in new window)
IP: 81.130.81.22 Edited: 30/06/2009 15:01:01 by (moderator)
ICLOK

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Box Loco question (photo)
Posted: 25/06/2009 23:32:43
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I think it was known as Thunderer otherwise Coffee Pot can't find build details as yet!


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'Iron is taken out of the earth' Job, 28, 2.
IP: 78.150.59.10
Ben Fisher

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Box Loco question (photo)
Posted: 27/06/2009 23:09:20
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I can't find anything about it in the "standard work" on vertical boilered locos (Rowland A.S. Abbott, Vertical Boiler Locomotives and Railmotors built in Great Britain, Oakwood Press, 1989). It does however appear to have some features more or less in common with locos built from the late 1850s by Alexander Chaplin and Co of Glasgow - general layout, shape of boiler, geared drive, motion/valve gear (though VB locos were often built around existing marine engines) - but nothing conclusive. There is a quite well known drawing of an 1859 Chaplin loco (standard gauge) drawn c. 1925 for The Locomotive Magazine's series of articles that became the book The Chronicles of Boulton's Siding (Boulton was a Victorian contractor and locomotive dealer), which Abbott also reproduces. The "1859" on the mudhole door of the Box drawing is also present on the Chaplin drawing.

I wonder though if the Box loco is (a) older, and (b) possibly a conversion of a road locomotive. The single driven axle would fit this better than even an early rail design for industry, and the loco is clearly designed to be driven and fired from a "front" above the smaller diameter carrying wheels. I'd further hazard a guess that (c) the Box drawing may be a composite, perhaps splicing a fairly close copy of the boiler and other parts from the 1925 Chaplin drawing with fragmentary details of the Box loco (a surviving frame, maybe?). In which case it may have nothing to do with Chaplin at all. Is there a date on the drawing anywhere?

And I know, I'll get me coat... Wink
IP: 84.69.178.111
Vanoord

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 30/06/2009 15:00:00
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This was the original request:

TRELAWNEY wrote:

I was very interested to see the drawing of the Box Loco on the web site and wanted to know more about the picture it was part of and the detail of it's gauge etc as I am a member of the Broad Gauge Society which has a prime interest in all things connected with Brunel's GWR 7FT 1/4IN track system.Ultimately, if it was of 7ft gauge then there would be a request to publish in the Society's magazine as copyright exists.

Could you kindly help in any way with the detail etc.


(I'll lock the thread that the request was originally made in.)

I'd be surprised if Broad Gauge was used underground, even given the relatively large spaces that could have been achieved in that part of the world?

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IP: 81.130.81.22 Edited: 30/06/2009 15:01:12 by Vanoord
ICLOK

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 30/06/2009 19:01:33
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After much digging thru various books I don't believe this to be a broad gauge contractors loco as I can get no refs from the ILS records. The Chaplin Alexander works list I have shows all were 0-4-0... The 0-2-2 wheel arrgt is quite an odd ball in industrial use so I trawled the earliest builders of this type and so far came up with -

1833 Benjamin Hick 0-2-2 built for Thomas Lever Rushton at Bolton, cylinders vertical at front!

1829 'Perseverance' built by T.Burstall of Leith, very similar looking but with large trailing wheel as against small.

But the last entry I found is-

Head Wrightson Wks No 23 of 1876, 0-2-2 loco geared drive at 3:1, built for the Chatterley Iron Co, the styling of the HW loco in the one photo of their 0-4-0 OC VB loco is very like the box loco... Wks no 23 was also strangely named 'Coffee Pot' as was the box loco!

Oh well back to the books.... The time frame of when the loco was there would be good?

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'Iron is taken out of the earth' Job, 28, 2.
IP: 78.145.184.26 Edited: 30/06/2009 19:03:09 by ICLOK
Peter Burgess

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 30/06/2009 19:20:23
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Was it usual for coffee-pot type locos to have the boiler slung so low as in that illustration? That would seem to indicate an operating environment with limited headroom.


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ICLOK

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 30/06/2009 19:29:46
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I don't know re how good the drawing is from a proportional point of view but it looks about normal to me for a VB loco... there are very few refs to 0-2-2vb in the uk.


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Ben Fisher

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 30/06/2009 20:52:47
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Peter Burgess wrote:

Was it usual for coffee-pot type locos to have the boiler slung so low as in that illustration? That would seem to indicate an operating environment with limited headroom.


Yes, low-slung boilers were pretty normal in VB locos, as they need all the available height to help with long enough fire tubes and chimney to get a decent draught on the fire. If you have a look at a de Winton, for instance, the firebox door is below footplate level (you literally fire through the floor). The major exception was Sentinel-type locos (much, much later than the Box one), which have the same type of compact high-pressure water tube boiler that you get in a Sentinel steam lorry.
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Peter Burgess

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 30/06/2009 21:16:26
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Thanks, Ben. This is one of the most educational message boards I subscribe to!


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ICLOK

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 02/07/2009 19:38:48
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I have further researched this which has revealed that the loco was introduced 2nd hand in 1883 and was scrapped or sold between June 1896 & October 1900.
The loco was introduced by Pictor & sons into the Clift Mine at base of Box Hill. The gauge of the line was 2'6".

As an aside there were 60 miles of track underground by 1930... Laugh



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'Iron is taken out of the earth' Job, 28, 2.
IP: 78.145.157.139 Edited: 02/07/2009 22:56:13 by ICLOK
Vanoord

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 02/07/2009 21:16:50
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ICLOK wrote:

I have further researched this which has revealed that the loco was introduced 2nd hand in 1883 and was scrapped or sold between June 1886 & October 1900.
The loco was introduced by Pictor & sons into the Clift Mine at base of Box Hill. The gauge of the line was 2'6".

As an aside there were 60 miles of track underground by 1930... Laugh


Aha, so this is much more akin to a De Winton than being a broad gauge monster!

Mind you... if one were to scale the drawing up, it would be on the assumption that the boiler sat between frames that were essentially on top of the wheels and therefore similar to the gauge.

If that were the case and the frames were, say, 6" wide, then the boiler would have a diameter of around 6', making the whole device somewhere around 16'-18' tall - and therefore somewhat unsuited to working underground... Big Grin

I guess the scale on the drawing gives the game away as well Wink

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ICLOK

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 02/07/2009 22:17:51
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Its an odd ball loco as this wheel arrgt is not common in industry, getting closer to finding it though... keep finding snippets on it but nothing in full. Oh well back to the books... sigh! Roll Eyes

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IP: 78.145.157.139
seend

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 27/12/2009 18:22:48
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The Box loco was designed to work underground at the Clift Quarry, it was working there in 1870, there are two photographs of it, it was an 0-4-0, the gauge was the Bath stone quarry standard of 2 feet 5.5 inches (750 mm). The drawing is purely conjectural and is misleading. IP: 84.92.61.24
Vanoord

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 27/12/2009 18:28:03
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Would 0-4-0 imply that the wheels were somehow linked and thus all driven?

Are those photographs anywhere on the interweb, incidentally?

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Morlock

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 27/12/2009 19:09:14
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Vanoord wrote:

Would 0-4-0 imply that the wheels were somehow linked and thus all driven?


The pic appears to show geared drive to the larger (front) wheels only.

0-4-0 would be two coupled axles.

Edit: Useful link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation
IP: 82.12.248.184 Edited: 27/12/2009 19:20:10 by Morlock
seend

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 28/12/2009 15:09:53
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Yes all wheels were driven IP: 84.92.61.24
seend

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 28/12/2009 15:28:39
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The photographs are on the choghole Bath stone website. Look under photographs:-

1) Quarrymen at entrance to Clift Quarry - the loco is at LH rear behind the quarrymen, only its upper works are visiable in this view, close scrutiny reveals several identical features in common with the view below.

2) New photos, the bottom one shows this loco in Wales some years after it had left Clift Quarry.
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derrickman

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 28/12/2009 16:45:49
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drawings from that period can be wildly inaccurate, or plain speculative, or just show original proposals, or a generic item used somewhere else, or completely out of scale, or just made so long after the event as to be largely irrelevant.

I would look for drawings specifically related to an order number, or photos, or something similar
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Vanoord

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 28/12/2009 18:21:38
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seend wrote:

The photographs are on the choghole Bath stone website. Look under photographs:-

1) Quarrymen at entrance to Clift Quarry - the loco is at LH rear behind the quarrymen, only its upper works are visiable in this view, close scrutiny reveals several identical features in common with the view below.

2) New photos, the bottom one shows this loco in Wales some years after it had left Clift Quarry.


Ta! Flowers

[web link] to website

1st Pic - [web link]
2nd Pic - [web link]

I'd go so far as to suggest that the loco in the second picture is not the one in the opening post of this thread!

The loco int he second picture looks not unlike a De Winton, but the boiler seems to be tubbier? There also seem to be a few other differences in general layout from what I can see from a brief search of the interweb.

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IP: 81.151.202.223 Edited: 28/12/2009 18:30:23 by Vanoord
ICLOK

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Box Loco - Question
Posted: 28/12/2009 19:12:21
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I'm intrigued with the 2nd loco... books out again... sigh! Roll Eyes

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