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Author Divining-rods
carnkie

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Joined: 07/09/2007
Location: camborne, cornwall

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 15:16:16
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In the old mining days diving-rods, or dowsing, were used as much for locating mineral veins as for discovering water. It was introduced in this country by German miners in the reign of Queen Elizabeth. Whether it was used in all mining areas I’ve no idea (perhaps others can shed some light on this) but according to Gough on Mendip the miners put implicit trust in the method.

Of course the debate has raged for years on the merits of the method having no basic scientific explanation. An interesting quote by Gough from the alleged definitive book (at the time) by Barrett and Besterman giving their conclusion. The conclusion was:

“That after a careful study of the evidence, was that diviners are 'endowed with a subconscious supernormal cognitive faculty, which, its nature being unknown, we call, after Professor Richet, cryptesthesia. By means of this cryptesthesia knowledge of whatever object is searched for enters the dowser's sub consciousness and is revealed by means of an unconscious muscular reaction', and sometimes in certain other ways".

This faculty they admit to be at present beyond the range of science, but they think that scientists will ultimately be driven to accept it from inability to explain the phenomena of dowsing by any other hypothesis.”

Now we know. Smile

All a bit different to the sinking of Grace's Shaft in North Basset.

In 1850 the miners were becoming increasingly desperate to locate sufficient copper deposits to meet costs. Casually they often mentioned to an elderly local woman, “ Nothing can be done Gracie; we shall have to knack the bal ”. But Gracie Mill always made the same reply. “ Take’n try over there, do’ee; that’s where we seed the Jackey Lanterns “. Initially they ignored Grace but in some desperation they finally set to work at the place recommended . The rest is history. From it, profits of £90,000 were made. The old lady was granted 5s a month and a new dress annually by the mine in recognition of her acute ability to ‘read the signs’.(Jenkin 1927: 296).

--

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
IP: 80.47.204.46
derrickman

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Joined: 18/02/2009

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 15:32:11
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that's a super word, cryptesthesia

what does it mean? fake senses? unknown sense?

"mummy mummy, why is that monk walking about a foot above the groud? - it's called levitation, dear - oh, that's all right then"

Tongue Roll Eyes

[web link]

"occam! where have you put the razor!!"
IP: 149.254.49.28 Edited: 05/11/2009 15:42:19 by derrickman
carnkie

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 15:43:57
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Hidden sensation. I've had a few of those although not recently. Big Grin

--

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
IP: 80.47.204.46
Cornish Pixie

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Joined: 02/01/2009
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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 15:48:45
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When I was last in Australia a couple of years ago, I saw divining rods used to locate sources of opal just outside Coober Pedy. Must admit I was a bit sceptical but the guy who demonstrated this to me was adamant that it worked and that it was the best way to find the very elusive opal.

Apparently my grandfather used to use hazel rods for detecting sources of water as well as minerals, and it was a method that was much used locally. That was before I was born, and I never remember him showing me as a child. Guess it's a case of

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Blink



--

Den heb davaz a gollaz i dir
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AR

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Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Knot far from Knotlow in the middle of the Peak District

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 15:53:01
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I seem to recollect Jim Rieuwerts wrote something for the PDMHS bulleting on early prospecting - it might even be available on the PDMHS website...

Various "supernatural" methods are recorded as having being used in the Peak, including the familiar form of divining, and watching where meteors ("fire drakes") came to earth which may be somewhat similar to the instance of "jacky lanterns" Carnkie cited. Another one is the "blue mist", which the old miners said would hover over mineral ground under certain conditions. I used to think this was a myth but a few years back I actually saw it early one morning. My journey to work takes me past Magpie mine about seven in the morning, and on this occasion there were lines of mist over all the veins in the Greenlow Hollow area (just to the west of Magpie mine), not only where there are still hillocks but also following the lines of veins across fields that have been levelled. Guess who didn't have a camera on him....Cursing

So, it does seem that ore-rich soils, under very particular conditions, do have some effect on condensation around them that gives rise to mist over them when it has burned off surrounding areas. There's a PhD for someone in this, I'm sure! Laugh

--

I sold my soul to Satan, but he brought it back and demanded a refund....
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Gwyn

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 15:55:10
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Aisthesthai is perceive. Hidden perception is a better translation. IP: 92.23.8.155
carnkie

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 16:10:35
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Thanks Gwyn. Flowers

--

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
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DougCornwall

Joined: 05/08/2009
Location: Helston

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 20:48:07
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Divining rods definately work whatever the science or lack of it. I have used them for many years to detect underground pipe runs of water, electric cables, gas pipes, soakaway pipe runs. The pipes can be plastic, clay or metal it makes no difference. Under soil or tarmac or concrete, makes no difference, it still works.
How it works no one seems to know but it seems as reliable as the modern electronic gadgets.
Not sure if there is a depth limit and never found a mineral vein using dowsing but never tried. There are plenty of stories and water drillers rely on the method even today.

Just go out in the garden and try it.
You don't need hazel rods just need two 6" lengths of copper tube and two wire coat hangers. Unequally bend the coat hangers 90 deg and stick the short end in the copper pipe, hold the pipes upright and watch those babies twitch.
It seems that more or less anyone can do it although I have found one or two that don't seem to get the nack and they are the ones who say it doesn't work. Well they would wouldn't they.
Just go out in the garden and give it a try. Its great for outdoor parties too.

--

Always have a backup plan.
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ttxela

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Joined: 04/09/2007
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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 20:55:02
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I've seen a demonstration by a building conservation officer using dowsing to find lines of old walls etc. in the grounds of an old cottage. She also showed she could find the locations where there had been fires. She found the site of one in the ....... fireplace.

Hmmm Roll Eyes
IP: 92.22.17.109
derrickman

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 21:02:24
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I've seen it done, mainly for water.

My experience has tended to be that it works in general terms, most of the time, for most people, but shouldn't be relied on in detail; ie it's not bad for finding springs and underground water but less useful for finding pipes, say; and shouldn't be relied on to prove there's nothing there because you can't find it.

how it works, I have no idea, and some people never do get the hang of it
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grahami

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 21:06:33
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I've commented on this before. The late Rodney Weaver was very good at this using the aforementioned curtain hangers and copper tube. He certainly was able to find buried iron water pipes and plot their course at the Oakeley Upper Quarry back inthe '70s. (And they were long empty of water!)

Grahami

--

The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
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Brakeman

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 21:49:40
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A couple of us do it using copper rods bent at right angles over at the Alderley copper mines, it's proven quite acurate at following levels and underground water courses, and we have opened up several lost adits this way in recent years that did not show up on the old plans.

It's quite funny watching peoples reactions when we give them the rods and let them give it a go.

The rods seem to react to disturbances within the ground, what ever they may be, ie pipes, culverts, streams,levels etc.

--

you'll need a magic wand to fix that
IP: 217.43.255.165 Edited: 05/11/2009 21:50:29 by Brakeman
Dean Allison

Joined: 13/01/2008
Location: Northumberland

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 21:55:23
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Well they certainly work with water anyway. I have tried it using a couple of bent rods made from that wire that farmers use on the tops of fences. The first time I saw it done was when my mate was working for the council, digging a trench for some cables and a guy from the water authority stopped to check where the water main was. He actaully got a pair of rods out of his van. I thought it was a joke but he said it was quicker than using the proper gear. After that I rushed home and tried it out and was amazed.

Might take a couple of rods next time I am underground to see if they react to veins.
IP: 90.203.50.178 Edited: 05/11/2009 21:56:41 by Dean Allison
Graigfawr

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 22:50:14
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Being a scientist, I've always been very sceptical.

Recall a lecturer recounting that during the WW2 in the desert, water sources were desperately sought so the army tried both dowsers and geologists. The geologists had a much higher success rate so the dowsers were put back into the front line and the army thereafter relied on the geologists. No prizes for guessing what subject the lecturer lectured on.

However, also recall an after-the-pub group divining session. Everyone was sufficiently lubricated so as to be incapable of successful guile and trickery, but still able to walk a reasonably straight line. In turn, each person was blindfolded and walked, rods in hand, down the street; the umpires silently totted up where they got reactions. In most cases there was a reaction everytime they crossed a line perpendicular to the kerb that had a water, gas or other pipe/cable stop-tap cover or inspection cover on it. Later the session was repeated on teh ground floor of a house with a cellar. Again, reactions with most people when they crossed the runs of cables and pipes visible in the unlined ceiling of the cellar - each was blindfolded and the pipe/cable runs were unknown to them and not marked on the ground floor.

My late father had a 'sense' for unstable ground overlying shallow workings at outcrop; he didn't know the locartions of the outcrops but when I correlated his comments to geological maps, they tallied.

So, although it offends my scientist's soul, I have to admit that there really is something in dowsing. No expereince of dowsing 'for real' however, only experiments/play as described.

Slight temperature differences along lode / seam outcrops are mentioned in few books. A fractional increase in soil temperature along a seam outcrop, sometimes attributed to pyrite decay, is not infrequently mentioned as melting the very slight frost that can occur in early spring or late autumn, and is said to have been responsible for coal miners tracing othersie elusive seam outcrops on still mornings. With temperature and humidity interacting, must be scope for analageous situations along lode outcrops, affecting frosts or mists in various ways on still mornings.

Yes, it is disconcerting when the rods move of their own accord in your hands. But why? How? Perhaps its good to still have good old fashioned mysteries...
IP: 78.150.58.225
Dean Allison

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 23:05:48
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Graigfawr thats a great story! You gotta try it. I have used a pair of modified wire coat hangers, starightened out with a bend at the end to make a "handle" Holding them parallel and passig a bowl of water underneath pulls the together. Its bizarre but fascinating. IP: 90.203.50.178
Brakeman

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Divining-rods
Posted: 05/11/2009 23:18:53
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The strangest thing I have ever done with my dowsing rods was 2 years ago in a freshly created bedroom to the front of my bungalow (built 1926).

Basically I swaped the layout around, moved the lounge to the rear & bedroom to the front.

After a couple of sleepless nights in the new bedroom, I decided to see if there was a problem with room, and using the rods walked around the room, the rods crossed over where the bed was, to the west side of the house. So moved the bed to the east side of the room. Perfect, slept well, had no problems ever since. Incedently in our old rear bedroom, the bed was to the east side.

I checked out the whole of the west side of our property and the rods crossed over, including in the garden. It would appear there is a water course on the east side trapped between layers of peat, only about 3 foot down under clay.

How odd, but it worked..

--

you'll need a magic wand to fix that
IP: 217.43.255.165 Edited: 05/11/2009 23:20:26 by Brakeman
carnkie

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Divining-rods
Posted: 06/11/2009 00:31:34
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AR wrote:

So, it does seem that ore-rich soils, under very particular conditions, do have some effect on condensation around them that gives rise to mist over them when it has burned off surrounding areas. There's a PhD for someone in this, I'm sure! Laugh


As a meteorologist in a former life have been giving some thought to this and have now decided to regroup and have a single malt. There is also the problem that far more emminent minds than mine have considered this and not come up (to my knowledge) with a reasonable explanation. My thinking is that it must have something to do with the moisture content of the soils, but no, that's a bit simplistic.

Anyway, how widespread was the practice?

--

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
IP: 80.47.221.55
carnkie

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Divining-rods
Posted: 06/11/2009 00:46:03
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Graigfawr wrote:

Being a scientist, I've always been very sceptical.


Good, another devotee of Richard Dawkins. But you still get science teachers who believe in the creationist theory.

--

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
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grahami

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Divining-rods
Posted: 06/11/2009 08:59:54
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As an ex-science teacher (my degree was in physics) before I got entangled in computers (slate mines always present) I find no conflict between a belief in creation and science - they are not mutually exclusive, and can be simply reconciled except to mutually entrenched viewpoints. This isn't the place to get on that hobby horse, however! Off Topic

Cheers

Grahami

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The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
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AndyC

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Divining-rods
Posted: 06/11/2009 10:49:53
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Like others here, (as far as water goes) I would be scheptical about divining ...

... were it not that I could do it.

I remember on another forum (forget which, probably not even mine related) that someone said he refused to believe in diviniong because "as it cannot be proven in a scientific trial, then it cannot exist'.

Sorry, but (done enough times to make it a proper trial) buring a bottle in a recently dug veg patch, raking the patch over so you cannot see where the bottle might be a letting the diviner loose on it can be used as a scientific trial.

One other funny thing. As a teenager I saw a programme saying that you could divine ley lines. And that you could create a ley line by reflecting the sun in a mirror, running the reflection down an iron post in the ground, and the 'shadow; becomes a ley line.

Even as I type it this soulds to me like a load of bollix.

However I did try it at the time, and it seemed to work (although this may ios probably a case of me expecting it to work).

Forgot all about that until today.

--

The nurses are stealing my underwear
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