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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author Rails Rails and More Rails
ICLOK

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 12/09/2009 21:22:57
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Heres a nice one for everybody... seeing as we're all obviously out and about exploring and probably treading over these things?...

Was looking thru my various bits and bobs on tramways, plateways etc ... I just got to wondering how many styles of rail can there be?, how many various forms of section?, ... Fair enough I know about the common ones but how about some regional examples, and perhaps someone out there can explain the standard mining/quarry types and how they were derived. Dinorwig on a recent visit had at least 3 types I saw, Ironstone quarries in the East Mids used various weight bull head rails and of course their are plateways... Bertram Baxter gives us a diagram of many types but I was wondering what others have seen and if anyone knows of a good internet link on this.
Flowers


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'Sir, I am unaware of any such activity or operation - nor would I be disposed to discuss such an operation if it did in fact exist, sir.'
IP: 78.150.88.91 Edited: 12/09/2009 21:38:41 by ICLOK
JR

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 13/09/2009 00:07:38
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Well this is a [web link] to a page with good basic information. I suspect that it is too simplistic to be useful to most forum members but parts are useful nonetheless.

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IP: 84.71.79.187 Edited: 13/09/2009 00:08:30 by JR
Mr.C

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 13/09/2009 00:23:23
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There was quite a good publication by (IIRC) the N Staffs Field Club called Stone Blocks & somthing - I'll see if I can find a copy.
In the mean time have a look at this, excavated from the smithy of Hill House Mine Elkstone Staffs 2003 by L Kirkham & Co.


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If things dunner change - the'll stop as the' are.
IP: 91.111.186.34 Edited: 13/09/2009 00:24:02 by Mr.C
derrickman

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 13/09/2009 06:14:06
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as a general comment, the majority of 24" gauge track likely to be encountered in mines is flat-bottomed rail either spiked to wooden sleepers of fixed in chairs and pandrol clips.

pre-fabricated track of the 'Jubilee' or 'Decauville' type uses flat-bottomed rail clipped into pressed-steel sleepers.

20lb/yard would be a heavy rail for this kind of application.
IP: 92.3.159.190
ICLOK

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 13/09/2009 13:47:01
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Mr C, Stoneblocks and Iron rails has good illustrations by Bertram Baxter,... I believe thats what you are referring to, which I have, but his set is by no means complete.... hence my thoughts on trying to find as many diff types... I thought its another one of those things we see around all the time and often go "not seen that sort before".

EDIT, is this the one


(click image to open full size image in new window)

Derrickman, how typical is the 24" gauge in todays mining... I imagine there has to be alot of standardisation based on keeping costs down alone, but a friend in mine car manufacture in South africa says they are building many gauges of vehicle in large numbers... so was perhaps wondering if their was a range of standards/sizes etc.

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'Sir, I am unaware of any such activity or operation - nor would I be disposed to discuss such an operation if it did in fact exist, sir.'
IP: 78.150.51.175 Edited: 13/09/2009 14:00:21 by ICLOK
derrickman

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 13/09/2009 20:51:47
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depends on the application. 24" gauge is still the standard for larger civils tunnelling up to about 4m diameter - Channel Tunnel construction railway was 30" gauge, as it happens.

most coal mines use 24", you can see the typical stock at Cromford. Coal mines have also traditionally made much use of belts and overhead monorails.

I would guess that the closures of Geevor and South Crofty in the 90s were the substantial end of 24" gauge mine railways in UK.

overseas sizes tend to be larger, with much use of gauges between 36" and 42" for mine railways.

IP: 92.3.159.190 Edited: 13/09/2009 20:53:17 by derrickman
Peter Burgess

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Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 14/09/2009 15:22:59
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I know the two main kinds of plate rail found in the Godstone quarries pretty well. Definitely one, and quite likely both, were sourced second hand from surface plateways. One type is that used on the CMGIR. A platerail found at Merstham pretty much matches the other of the types at Godstone, and my suspicion is that it came from the internal tramway at the limeworks, which was probably lifted and disposed of at the same time as the CMGIR ones.

As far as edge railways are concerned, I have a scaled section of the line used in Colley Hill Mine up to 1961 which I can upload later.


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ICLOK

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 14/09/2009 16:52:00
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Peter, I keep meaning to ask you are the CMGIR plates of typical outram pattern, size, they look it? especially with the foot on each end and half sq hole. However I notice in Baxters book they are fish bellied too but don't look it in your excellent dean quarrry pics on here. Its interesting that Wm & Josia Jessop were the engineers being of Butterley Co fame hence my interest as with Outram being a major part of the Butterley Co story, his plates no doubt had an influence in what plate design was used/supplied to the CMGIR. The conserved Pennydarren plates are not fishbellied nor are the batches supplied to LE&D in Derbyshire to replace the failing Butler plates. Any measurements taken from actual rail would be hugely welcome and any variations in patterns noted would be most useful.

I recently went back to Loscoe in Derbys and looked at the stone blocks in Red River, oddly the rail width which had scored the blocks was only 3.5 inches wide... very odd indicating more of a coalbrookdale type plate. The end of which seems to have had no foot arrgt... better keep digging that one... the locals give me strange looks when stood there in me wellies with me trowel scraping away!

Many Regards ICLOK

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'Sir, I am unaware of any such activity or operation - nor would I be disposed to discuss such an operation if it did in fact exist, sir.'
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Mr.C

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 14/09/2009 17:19:33
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Iclok did you have a look at the tramway from Stonetrough & Tower Hill down to the Macc canal when you were here recently?
The section from the Cheshire portal of the tunnel is worth a look if passing - have you seen the video?

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ICLOK

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 14/09/2009 17:24:04
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No, got any NGRs/pics for ref as passing there again Weds possibly so could go.. why is it worth a good look?

Regs ICLOK

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'Sir, I am unaware of any such activity or operation - nor would I be disposed to discuss such an operation if it did in fact exist, sir.'
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Mr.C

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Posted: 14/09/2009 17:52:44
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The portal is at SJ 853 570 but on private land - more details by pm
If you pm me your email address I'll send you a copy of Len Kirkhams excellent article on it, which appeared in the local paper.
There are at least 4 tramways in the area which are worth a look if passing - the Trubshaw colliery to Macc canal (still some blocks (if you know where to look!) 3' gauge.
And the one from Goldenhill Stone Pits to Birchenwood had a brake incline which is still evident (I'll post a pic in a bit) are particularly good.
Here's the pic. (edge of Mow Cop just visible top right)


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If things dunner change - the'll stop as the' are.
IP: 91.111.186.34 Edited: 14/09/2009 18:03:50 by Mr.C
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 14/09/2009 18:23:41
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I don't believe any SIR rails have ever come to light, or they are at least extremely rare. I think Baxter will have taken his sketch from earlier publications such as Charles Lee. There are also contemporary sketches but I suspect they are not entirely reliable, and may be where Lee got his ideas from. The CMGIR rails are definitely not like the sketched SIR ones. The lower flange is about 1 inch deep, and the main flange is about 4 inches high, curving down to about 2 inches high at either end. I had always thought the CMGIR rails were textbook Outram, being supplied from Butterley directly. Outram's guidelines for track bed etc seems to have been followed to the letter.


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ICLOK

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 14/09/2009 18:58:07
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Peter, thats my point they probably are but we seem to see two types from Butterley, one with the fish belly and feet of the type you describe and a simpler version (less the fish belly) but otherwise the same... the NRM plate from Penydarren is of this type. Jessop and Outram were partners in Butterley as such, hence my interest in any differences found in plates. The plates on the picture below are on the LE&D and show both types, the flatter ones seem similar to the NRM Penydarren design yet were by all accounts cast at Butterley also...EDIT, image added-

(click image to open full size image in new window)

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'Sir, I am unaware of any such activity or operation - nor would I be disposed to discuss such an operation if it did in fact exist, sir.'
IP: 92.26.124.112 Edited: 14/09/2009 19:07:09 by ICLOK
Manicminer

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Posted: 14/09/2009 19:42:03
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Some mines had cheap crimped steel

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ICLOK

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 14/09/2009 20:10:12
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Eh? For real? Shocked

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ICLOK

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 18/09/2009 14:25:56
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Found this, this is Outram Rail patterns, No fish belly ones!! Which is odd..


(click image to open full size image in new window)

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'Sir, I am unaware of any such activity or operation - nor would I be disposed to discuss such an operation if it did in fact exist, sir.'
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Peter Burgess

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 18/09/2009 14:32:42
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Where is that from? Are they really Outram rails, or is that someone's assumption?

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thorpey

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Rails Rails and More Rails
Posted: 18/09/2009 23:26:16
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in ratgoed there is round wrought iron rails


(click image to open full size image in new window)

Thorpey

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ICLOK

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Posted: 19/09/2009 00:26:58
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Excellent ... were they spiked to the stone block I can just make out? Thumb Up

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JohnnearCfon

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Posted: 19/09/2009 11:43:02
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Also, did they have the turned down ends like they did at Penrhyn, Blaen y Cwm, Gorseddau and other places?

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