Mine exploration, photographs and mining history for mine explorers, industrial archaeologists, researchers and historians Mine explorer and mining history videos on YouTube Connect with other mine explorers on Facebook
Tip: do not include 'mine' or 'quarry', search by name e.g. 'cwmorthin', use 'Sounds like search' if unsure of spelling

Advanced Search
'Sounds like search'
Quick a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
Tip: narrow down your search by typing more than one word and selecting 'Search for all words' or 'Exact search'

Search for any word
Search for all words
Exact search
Tip: narrow down your search by typing more than one word and selecting 'Search for all words' or 'Exact search'

Search for any word
Search for all words
Exact search

Mine Exploration Forum

Jump to page << < 1 2 3 4 > >>
Author Dumping the Wheal
royfellows

Avatar of royfellows

Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 20:47:21
Reply |  Quote
Cornish Pixie wrote:

I for one appreciate you bringing this matter to our collective attention. A number of very useful comments and suggestions have arisen as a result. I am sure that the database will be greatly enhanced in the future and will continue to be a prime source of information for all those who are interested in mining heritage.

Might be an opportune time to say how much I have learnt from the fabulous photos and descriptions of mines which have been uploaded by so many people. We have a truly great resource here and thanks to those who tirelessly administer the database and website behind the scenes Thumb Up .


Endorsed in full.
Anyway, I will have to log off now, as I have other things to do.

--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239
SimonRL

Avatar of SimonRL

Joined: 27/11/2005
Location: North Wales

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 21:13:03
Reply |  Quote
royfellows wrote:

Simon, where are you?


Hiding!

Although in truth only just had a chance to have a read of this thread - it's been one of those days.

Right then.

I agree with Cornish Pixie, it's good that Roy bought this to our attention and some useful comments have arisen.

However, a few unworkable things have arisen as well Wink

In running this site (and I've said this before) I do not profess to know everything about everything. And I've said this before too... there are people on here with more years knowledge than I've been around for. So, I don't feel qualified to sit in judgement and say absolutely how things are. That means I need feedback and ideas from people.

One hard and fast rule I do apply though is not to radically change or move peoples' submissions without consulting them. So a search for all 'empty' mines and a mass cull of them is out of the question.

Aside from alienating people who take their own time to add this information, it would stop people finding the site. A blank entry is a blank canvass for somebody to fill in the gaps in the information and upload some photographs.

For that reason I'm happy for there to be blank entries on here. Fact is, most of the populated mine entries on here started blank.

Next, two databases. I can't see that working I'm afraid. Which do people search? Which do people upload to? How do you deal with inconsistencies between them? There is only one of me.

On the subject of Prefix, such as Wheal (and any others). I can see that working well on a database that's not effectively open to all to edit. But where anybody can register and add a mine I think it would complicate things for newcomers. I also think it would open another can of worms of what prefixes we should have along similar lines to the 'classify as' debate.

On balance I am in favour of using the name the mine (or quarry, or whatever) was officially known as.

We already have two name fields, name and 'alternative name'.

I can see argument for adding an operating names record for each mine, allowing alternative names to be added between dates.

Similarly allowing information about companies operating the mine between dates would be worthwhile.

I would likely consider these Autumn jobs, by way of ongoing enhancement and improvements.

In the mean time I have stacks of ongoing improvements and updates to do, including finishing off applying the new design to all pages, a raft of bug fixes and some new features. And I want to make improvements to the search facility, and to the 'add a mine' facility so it alerts you if it thinks you're adding a duplicate. So I've not given up - far from it!

On the subject of duplications and errors. Rather than worry about it and let it fester, just post it up in the forum. Either me, one of the admins or one of the regional editors will be able to sort it out. Although please don't bombard us with hundreds at the same time, we do have day jobs Laugh But a process of attrition I am sure will sort out errors.

Hope that helps, and is what the majority wanted to hear.

Flowers
IP: 84.66.13.21 Edited: 20/05/2009 21:14:28 by SimonRL
Vanoord

Avatar of Vanoord

Joined: 28/11/2005
Location: North Wales

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 21:30:40
Reply |  Quote
Peter Burgess wrote:

Daring to be unpopular here, but if a mine has no content - no description, no photos, no location, nothing - should it not be deleted completely? What value does it add to the database?


It encourages people to go there and see what's there Wink

Whether or not there is content, the data of what was there is still valid and acts as part of the overall resource. The aim obviously is for each entry to be expanded, but there has to be a husk there to build around.

Similarly, having the database looked after by a group of knowledgeable regional editors who ensure the veracity of the data massively reduced the odds of ad hoc entries causing all sorts of issues down the line.

--

Filling space until a new signature comes along...
IP: 86.134.153.113
Vanoord

Avatar of Vanoord

Joined: 28/11/2005
Location: North Wales

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 22:22:27
Reply |  Quote
ICLOK wrote:

My point here is that the name of the mine on the DB should reflect how people know that site .... simple as that...


Very simply put and almost certainly hits the nail on the head Smile

I'm tempted to suggest that the name that was in use during the final years was worked will be the one that's best known - and probably the most suitable to be used in the database?

--

Filling space until a new signature comes along...
IP: 86.134.153.113
carnkie

Avatar of carnkie

Joined: 07/09/2007
Location: camborne, cornwall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 23:05:13
Reply |  Quote
But going full circle and back to spitfires original post which I agree with entirely. Wheal should maintained. And that really is the main the problem. And I would imagine it will take a bit of sorting.

--

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
IP: 79.74.134.196
Roy Morton

Avatar of Roy Morton

Joined: 09/10/2007
Location: Redruth Cornwall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 01:02:41
Reply |  Quote
Quite honestly I find it hard to believe that this subject has arisen at all. To erase an historical prefix just because 'it won't fit on the page' would be like removing the prefix Duke from Wellington, on the grounds that there are already loads of Duke's in Burke's Peerage, and it would reduce the size of the book dramatically!
Potty! Blink
As for erasing an entry alltogether, that would be akin to removing part of the fossil record too, as we have no information as to how some of these animals lived or existed; clearly a preposterous proposition.
Surely we contribute to this site to record and preserve history and not to edit it!
Keep the WHEAL, and as for the database list appearing as 1300 odd entries long, I'm sure most people would be happy to trawl an alphabetical list over several pages rather that one long one as is being suggested.
I think if suggestions are needed about a region then the contributers within that region ought to have the priority.
After all, I certainly wouldn't interfere with names / prefixes in any other region than my own.








--

'Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear'
IP: 81.153.210.132 Edited: 21/05/2009 01:04:52 by Roy Morton
royfellows

Avatar of royfellows

Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 09:59:13
Reply |  Quote
Upon reflection, I agree with what Roy M says, leave naming conventions or whatever to the regional editors of the respective region.
I personally am now thinking that this is the best way to go, as they will know their own area better than anyone else and be able to reflect the wishes of those who contribute.
All agree?

If so, what about my central Wales region and alternative spellings.
If I proposed to enter mines under whatever different names they were known by, have all documentation, photos etc under whatever name it was most commonly known by, and in the other enter “See X”, what do people think of this?

Here is an example: Penrhyngerwin holds the data, Lovedon carries the description “See Penrhyngerwin”

Also, what about the hyphenated spellings?
Example, Alltycrib and Talybont can be spelt either way, yet they are all the same mine.

Any constructive ideas on this?


--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239 Edited: 21/05/2009 10:00:34 by royfellows
derrickman

Avatar of derrickman

Joined: 18/02/2009

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 10:05:10
Reply |  Quote
a few comments based on a fair amount of experience of trawling old records at work...

1) local names are often descriptive and tend to repeat themselves. I don't know how many 'castletons' there are up and down the country, for example.

Mine and quarry names are the same, not least because the miners tended to use familiar names. There are a lot of obviously Cornish and Welsh names in S Africa and S America, for example.

the 1970s and 1980s Wheal Jane was probably so named for admistrative reasons revolving around the historic documentation used to define the mineral leases involved.

This is another reason for not attempting to superimpose 'Cornish' or 'Welsh' forms on names, because the name that mine was known by may well not be a local name anyway, originally.

2) names used should match any extant documentation, for obvious reasons.

3) the system of using duplicate names differentiated by ( area ) suffixes is a common one and works well

4) there is no way of differentiating a blank entry, from an existing one containing some details. Any duplicate name without some sort of differentiation should be deleted.

5) blank entries not apparently covered by any other entry, should be kept; you never know what might appear in the future. A mine may be lost under a motorway, but documents may survive or some information may have been gathered during the construction phase.
IP: 149.254.58.89
sparty_lea

Avatar of sparty_lea

Joined: 26/04/2007
Location: Weardale

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 10:08:25
Reply |  Quote
royfellows wrote:



Also, what about the hyphenated spellings?
Example, Alltycrib and Talybont can be spelt either way, yet they are all the same mine.

Any constructive ideas on this?


When entering a mine on the database there is a field for alternative names/spellings, put the most commonly used one as the mine name and the rest in the second field?
IP: 81.170.52.230
spitfire

Avatar of spitfire

Joined: 22/04/2008
Location: Camborne

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 10:16:05
Reply |  Quote
I will give a cautious yes to both Roys on this but it must be with the consensus of local historians that have spent years researching this subject

--

spitfire
IP: 81.141.108.123
ChrisJC

Avatar of ChrisJC

Joined: 13/10/2007
Location: Northants

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 10:45:25
Reply |  Quote
I would suggest that it's an opportunity for our esteemed webmaster to come up with a search system that is either fuzzy or clever enough to deal with some of the easier ambiguities. For example, searching for Tal-y-bont or Talybont is effectively the same.

We can use technology to make at least some of the argument irrelevant.

Chris.
IP: 90.152.39.96
SimonRL

Avatar of SimonRL

Joined: 27/11/2005
Location: North Wales

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 10:51:03
Reply |  Quote
ChrisJC wrote:

I would suggest that it's an opportunity for our esteemed webmaster to come up with a search system that is either fuzzy or clever enough to deal with some of the easier ambiguities. For example, searching for Tal-y-bont or Talybont is effectively the same.

We can use technology to make at least some of the argument irrelevant.

Chris.


That is on the cards yes. It needs to match tal y bont with talybont and tal-y-bont. Not too difficult, but the list of new features and requests is rather long at the moment Sad

Searching already works in both name and alternative name.

I do also like the idea of being able to store multiple name records between specific years if the concensus is that is requried.
IP: 83.148.135.213
sparty_lea

Avatar of sparty_lea

Joined: 26/04/2007
Location: Weardale

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 10:53:50
Reply |  Quote
derrickman wrote:


This is another reason for not attempting to superimpose 'Cornish' or 'Welsh' forms on names, because the name that mine was known by may well not be a local name anyway, originally.



Seems to me that there is a general movement in Scotland and Wales to maintain the old language which includes dual signage of place names and an interest in speaking the old language. (dont know about Cornwall, hardly been there)

If, as a result of that, people become familiar with older forms and use them then the database needs to reflect that.

It's not about being PC or whatever, it's about being useful, if someone unfamiliar with the variant spellings comes across a reference to "Bryn yr Afr", for example, and wants to look it up on here, it might not occur to them to search for "Brynyafr" but if the variants are in the alternative name field then the correct mine should be found anyway.

Bottom line is if a form is in use then it doesn't matter if it's "correct" or desirable it needs to be here.
IP: 81.170.52.230
davel

Avatar of davel

Joined: 24/07/2007
Location: Gwynedd

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 11:30:35
Reply |  Quote
Dare I raise my head above the parapet?

The search system on my on-line implementation of Jeremy Wilkinson's gazetteer and bibliography of the mines and quarries of north Wales [web link] searches by name of mine irrespective of capitalisation, spaces, hyphens, aprostrophes etc. (Searches can also be by product, parish, county and distance from a given grid reference or postcode and any combination of these.)

Also, as well as searching on the beginning of a name, searches can also be made for names containing the search string - this avoids the problem of names with a common prefix such as 'Llan'.

In addition, searches can be made for names not containing the search string, which is useful when you want to search for say a slate quarry within a given distance of a specified grid reference but want to exclude a quarry you already know about.

I've also done my best to cross-reference different names for the same sites. Each different name has its own entry but includes a note such as 'see also ... ' or 'alternative name for ... ' with a link to that entry.

Dave
IP: 195.137.87.110 Edited: 21/05/2009 11:36:11 by davel
SimonRL

Avatar of SimonRL

Joined: 27/11/2005
Location: North Wales

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 11:47:21
Reply |  Quote
I think it's fair to say that all these features will appear in the site over time. I wish I could do everything overnight, but I can't, I have to pay my bills as wellBig Grin

There is provision to enter an alternative name against a mine (and both are searched in) and, once I've finished the current round of development and improvements (which is quite a list) I will tackle searching, search speed, and saving and cross referencing multiple mine name records.

That work is ongoing, and I suspect will always be ongoing, is not a reason to be put off adding mines, uploading historical documents or moden day trip reports or modern and archive photographs. The core database is very well strctured, it can cope with all of this, and I'm quite happy refining front-end processes around the database as is.

I'll be here coding and maintaining this site as long as there is demand for it.
IP: 83.148.135.213 Edited: 21/05/2009 11:49:20 by SimonRL
Gwyn

Avatar of Gwyn

Joined: 23/10/2007
Location: Bethesda.

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 11:57:01
Reply |  Quote
In the Welsh context the following may be of some interest and use:-
http://www.e-gymraeg.co.uk/enwaulleoedd/amr/
http://www.bangor.ac.uk/ar/cb/enwau_lleoedd.php.en
http://www.byig-wlb.org.uk/English/services/Pages/Place-Names.aspx
The standard reference tome is The Dictionary of the Place-Names of Wales. Owen,Morgan. Gomer. 2007.
ISBN 978 184323 901 7
Bryn-yr-Afr is the hill of the goat. Afr is a mutation of gafr therefore y becomes yr. Standard Welsh requires the hyphens. Brynyafr may exist on paper but it is, to say the least, rather odd and I doubt would even be used in conversation.
Thumb Up
IP: 92.18.67.105
AR

Avatar of AR

Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Knot far from Knotlow in the middle of the Peak District

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 11:59:12
Reply |  Quote
sparty_lea wrote:

derrickman wrote:


This is another reason for not attempting to superimpose 'Cornish' or 'Welsh' forms on names, because the name that mine was known by may well not be a local name anyway, originally.



Seems to me that there is a general movement in Scotland and Wales to maintain the old language which includes dual signage of place names and an interest in speaking the old language. (dont know about Cornwall, hardly been there)

If, as a result of that, people become familiar with older forms and use them then the database needs to reflect that.

It's not about being PC or whatever, it's about being useful, if someone unfamiliar with the variant spellings comes across a reference to "Bryn yr Afr", for example, and wants to look it up on here, it might not occur to them to search for "Brynyafr" but if the variants are in the alternative name field then the correct mine should be found anyway.

Bottom line is if a form is in use then it doesn't matter if it's "correct" or desirable it needs to be here.


I agree - I think the way forward is to get the alternative names into the database as much as possible. For example, to take a well-known Derbyshire mine, the Hillocks and Knotlow complex, the names they are commonly known by now are the ones given to them by cavers back in the late 1950s. Their "proper" names are Whalfe and Crimbo mines respectively, but it'd be silly and pedantic for them to be on the database under these names as that's now what most people know them as. Instead, these should be included on the alternative name field for each mine so that someone doing a search after seeing historical references to these mines would find the right page for the mine. Plus, if we have a mine under anything other than the name it's generally known by we risk getting duplicate entries, which has happened before!

--

I think I'll have the sheep first, then I'll have the abbot
IP: 194.159.145.70
derrickman

Avatar of derrickman

Joined: 18/02/2009

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 15:31:59
Reply |  Quote
if these mines have 'common' names given by cavers in the 50s, and 'proper' names which are presumably derived from their working incarnations, they need to be linked on the database. Presumably by being listed under their 'common names' and the original names given as alternatives?


browsing around I see that mines on and around the Geevor site, have variously been called Huel an Gever, Geever, Wheal Geevor and Geevor Tin Mines Ltd at different times in their 300-year-plus history. Some parts of the mine have also been known as North Levant in one reworking, and the last phase of working incorporated old workings formerly worked by Levant.

which suggests that they should be listed as 'Geevor' since this is commonly known and unique to this location, and the others given as alternatives.

IP: 149.254.56.76 Edited: 21/05/2009 15:44:45 by derrickman
Vanoord

Avatar of Vanoord

Joined: 28/11/2005
Location: North Wales

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 17:23:44
Reply |  Quote
Without wishing to seem a bit cursory, I'd suggest that in all but a handful of cases there will be one name that is commonly accepted and that's the one that should be used!

It's all very well finding examples that have been known by multiple names, but in reality, the majority of mines are known by one name. For example: Oakeley is referred to as Oakeley, despite it previously being Lower Quarry, Middle Quarry, Hollands etc.

It's probably worth putting all the other names in the description along with a short potted history, as this will increase the usefulness of the entry as a resource.

--

Filling space until a new signature comes along...
IP: 81.130.123.230 Edited: 21/05/2009 17:25:33 by Vanoord
davel

Avatar of davel

Joined: 24/07/2007
Location: Gwynedd

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 21/05/2009 17:51:11
Reply |  Quote
Vanoord wrote:

... I'd suggest that in all but a handful of cases there will be one name that is commonly accepted and that's the one that should be used!


One of the 'handful of cases' I can think of is Cwt y Bugail - do you use that for its original site or for Manod.

It's all very well finding examples that have been known by multiple names, but in reality, the majority of mines are known by one name. For example: Oakeley is referred to as Oakeley, despite it previously being Lower Quarry, Middle Quarry, Hollands etc.

It's probably worth putting all the other names in the description along with a short potted history, as this will increase the usefulness of the entry as a resource.


However, I would argue that you need to be able to search on all the names, otherwise, if you come across a reference to say 'Hollands' how do you know that you need to look it up under 'Oakeley'?

Dave
IP: 195.137.87.110 Edited: 21/05/2009 17:52:05 by davel
Jump to page << < 1 2 3 4 > >>
Safety LED Miners Caplamps Moore Books: Specialist Books I.A. Recordings: Mining and Industrial History DVDs Starless River - Caving Store Explore a Disused Welsh Slate Mine
Disclaimer: Mine exploring can be quite dangerous, but then again it can be alright, it all depends on the weather. Please read the proper disclaimer.
© 2005 to 2015 AditNow.co.uk
Top of Page