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Author Dumping the Wheal
Vanoord

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Joined: 28/11/2005
Location: North Wales

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:05:48
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The database here on AditNow has 203 mines with 'Wheal' in the name Smile

If you go to the home page and use the "Mine Names" search, that's the quickest way of finding mines Wink

Obviously, if you use (eg) "Jane" as a search word, it would return "Jane mine" and "Wheal Jane mine" as well as the likes of "Catherine and Jane Consols mine".

Thus, from a point of view of searching, as long as you know the name of the mine, you'll find it.


However... if you believe the mine is called "Wheal Jane" and put that into the search (as an exact search, not a 'Wheal' or 'Jane' search!), but the mine is stored as "Jane", then you won't find it.

From that point of view it makes more sense to label the mine with it's commonly know form, even though it may not be entirely correct from a tautological point of view.


***

Briefly on a similar point, I'm not sure that it wouldn't be easier to combine some working that were worked jointly (and as one big hole) as a similar entry using the name that was used once they had been combined.

The distinction can still be made in albums, for example:

Bryneglwys slate mine comprised separate workings that included 'Bryneglwys' and 'Cantrybedd' - and there's an argument that they could be split into two, even though they were worked as a single entity and were connected in later use.

However, there's no reason why the following albums couldn't be created:

Bryneglwys User Album (default)
Bryneglwys Archive Album
+ Bryneglwys trip on xx/xx/xx
Cantrybedd Archive Album

Thus, the archive albums reflect that the working were separate, but the mine still remains a single entity and much more easily understood by the casual user.

Descriptions can be added to the album descriptions, eg "Cantrybedd was first worked in xxxx under the management of xxx and was connected to Bryneglwys by a tunnel driven on the xx level in xxxx".

Note: I'm not suggesting that this is the solution to many of the West Country mines, merely that the way in which the database is organised allows a bit of flexibility which may be of relevance in some cases - particularly for dealing with workings that were later amalgamated into others!

--

Filling space until a new signature comes along...
IP: 81.130.123.230 Edited: 20/05/2009 19:08:41 by Vanoord
derrickman

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Joined: 18/02/2009

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:07:10
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but surely the total column height for whatever number of lines of text, is the same regardless of which letter it is filed under?

I see your point but I don't quite follow it.

anyway, if I was looking for, say, Wheal Jane, I would type that in 'Search' and there it would be....
IP: 82.32.67.44
royfellows

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Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:09:22
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derrickman wrote:

but surely the total column height for whatever number of lines of text, is the same regardless of which letter it is filed under?

I see your point but I don't quite follow it.

anyway, if I was looking for, say, Wheal Jane, I would type that in 'Search' and there it would be....


Yes Mr Derrickman, sorry I am being misleading, I just picked the "W" out of instinct, it matters not which, they are all the same height.
But its its still 16 metres.

--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239
derrickman

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:14:21
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I'm on the same page as Vanoord, by the looks of it.

you type in the name, or the 'sounds like', or one keyword from its name, and it gives you the possible answers.

as long as you don't enter 'Wheal' as a keyword you will be ok, if you do you have only yourself to blame!

the actual size of the text column isn't important, because you never scroll down it.. and for the casual browsers you have a 'I feel lucky' button, or something similar, which just gives random selections until the user decides what he particularly wants to know more about

IP: 82.32.67.44
royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:17:43
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Mr Vanoord remarks on different ways of searching a database, different people will have their own preferences. Using my databases you can search any field as "any part of field" or "whole match", as he describes. You can also drop down a list and search alphabetically, or type into that field and it will alphabetically make a selection based on what you type, so often a return is obtained after you type the first 3 or 4 characters.
Hence the avoidance of a common prefix.


--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239
sparty_lea

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Joined: 26/04/2007
Location: Weardale

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:22:25
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If I was searching for Wheal Jane and all I found was 'Jane Mine', I wouldn't know if that was it or not.

I dont think dropping the "wheal" is a good idea if that's how the mine is commonly known.
IP: 81.170.52.230
royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:25:43
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I don’t know whether its relevant but there appears to be 2 Wheal Jane's that are the same mine already both under "Wheal".

--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239
derrickman

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:26:57
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well, quite so.

if a mine is commonly known as Wheal Jane it should be enetered as such. If it entered twice, for historic reasons or a simple mistake, one entry should be deleted. If you are saying that's a huge job, because of the amount of data, that could well be so.

if your search function gives 1,000,000 matches to the first few letters, you try and avoid using such a common first word, or you type in more letters and there will be fewer possible answers
IP: 82.32.67.44 Edited: 20/05/2009 19:29:12 by derrickman
carnkie

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Joined: 07/09/2007
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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:36:06
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sparty_lea wrote:

If I was searching for Wheal Jane and all I found was 'Jane Mine', I wouldn't know if that was it or not.

I dont think dropping the "wheal" is a good idea if that's how the mine is commonly known.


Try putting Wheal Vor into the search engine.

--

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
IP: 79.74.134.196
spitfire

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Joined: 22/04/2008
Location: Camborne

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:42:00
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Right Mr Fellows, so you have 1376 Wheals on your data base that is very commendable, but how many of them are relevant to the needs of the users on this site?
Peter Burgess hit the nail on the head with his two questions.
I would suggest that there should be two data bases, one that includes every mine that ever was and the other for the purpose of uploading documents and photos.
For instance: Wheal Harmony Redruth, nothing now exists of this mine and it's unlikely any photos or documents survive. If by chance something should appear then that could be added to the working data base ( for want of a better description ). Using the data base this way would deplete the Wheal element by about 75% I would think
I agree that these old mine names should be kept but the data base as it stands is far too cumbersome

--

spitfire
IP: 81.141.108.27
ICLOK

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Joined: 19/02/2008
Location: Ripley, Derbyshire up North.

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:54:49
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As someone who got into seriously walking and exploring Cornish mining sites circa 12-13 years ago, I can only say the following on this subject...

When in Cornwall I found most references from people and books were often to Wheal so and so ... which is in keeping with what I have subsequently learned so where appropriate I refer to that mine that way..

When in Cornwall there were many mines which people called East etc Wheal blah blah, which is how i have always subsequently known them..

There are mines without Wheal with just a name... again thats how I learned it so thats what I call it, based on books and the people I've met!

My point here is that the name of the mine on the DB should reflect how people know that site .... simple as that...

Eg, Wheal Jane or just Jane will come up with the correct reference on here... however when I joined East Wheal Rose did not which is plain wrong as that is how I and everyone i know says it... never heard anyone call it Rose East...

As a none Cornish person that came to the West Country sometime in the 70s as a boy and was fascinated by the Wheal references and all the different names I am of the firm opinion the Wheal should stay as 20 years later the same ref to Wheal etc was being made to the same sites when I finally got time to get hooked... and now bang up to date it should still be Wheal whatever... or whatever it is usually know as..

Re the Cornish Language I will repeat what I said re Welsh... I have no interest whether the language is live .. dead... or otherwise just as long as it exists to enrich the culture of us all and take its place in the rich tapestry of our heritage giving us a sight of times when English did not rule the earth!!

Spitfire, Re two Data bases I understand your point and respect your view but do not agree.... I feel it is ok to record mines with content and non content on the same DB, the problem from what I can see is where we have a confusing rash of entries all relating to the same place with similar names.
It would be a shame not to list a mine just because its lost below a motorway....
I think in reality your concept of two DBs exists all ready as mines with and without content... its a matter of how you sort the DB as it stands... Wink

--

Living in the hope of pinpoint accuracy laser weapons!!!
IP: 78.150.18.133 Edited: 20/05/2009 20:06:33 by ICLOK
royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 19:55:20
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Mr Spitfire, I think that you are getting towards a possible solution. One alternative would be splitting the search criteria into mines with content and mines without content.
There would still be an issue however for anyone who just clicked “W” and wanted to scroll the list.

It may well be that I am looking at it from a software developers point of view; obviously the majority view will prevail.
At the end of the day though, people will have decide which way to go on this, especially in view of the large entry of mines that are “Wheals” but have been entered without that prefix.
We should have some technical advice on possible issues first; web sites are not my thing so I can offer nothing except the comments above about the possible 1600 entries.

It’s my opinion that some form of standardisation on mine entries would be a good idea, do we all agree on this?

My solution to mines worked under different names would be to include all the names but enter information; pictures etc under the commonly used one and add a note to the other “See X”

Mines with the same name have already attracted a useful, simple and practical suggestion from Mr Derrickman, basically just put the area after the name of the mine in round brackets.


--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239
Peter Burgess

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Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 20:08:47
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Daring to be unpopular here, but if a mine has no content - no description, no photos, no location, nothing - should it not be deleted completely? What value does it add to the database?

--

Hey, who turned out the lights!
IP: 92.3.154.87
ICLOK

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 20:11:34
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Hang on but don't we have the ability to search on here for mines with content already? If so why 2 DB's ... 1 DB with relevent search criteria surely!

--

Living in the hope of pinpoint accuracy laser weapons!!!
IP: 78.150.18.133
royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 20:17:54
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Peter Burgess wrote:

Daring to be unpopular here, but if a mine has no content - no description, no photos, no location, nothing - should it not be deleted completely? What value does it add to the database?


Your not unpopular with me, it is a relevant suggestion. But one which would have to be carefully considered, for instance is there a map reference included.
Basically, at least it’s an indication that a mine exists there.

There have been a few snide remarks, especially on the original thread, but I think that we are getting somewhere.
Comment on the last 3 paragraphs of my last posting anyone?


--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239
Peter Burgess

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 20:22:48
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If it has a map reference then it isn't a mine with no content and it is a useful entry. Here's a pseudo script for you....

DELETE MINELIST WITH DESCRIPTION = NULL AND LOCATION = NULL AND GALLERY.COUNT = 0

Go on - I dare you!

The only purpose a NULL entry has, surely, is as an encouragement for someone to add some content. Otherwise they just get in the way of a search for a mine that does have content!

--

Hey, who turned out the lights!
IP: 92.3.154.87 Edited: 20/05/2009 20:26:43 by Peter Burgess
royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 20:27:05
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Fair enough Peter, however I think that as far as the "Wheals" go we need some technical input on any relevant issues.
Simon, where are you?

--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239
Peter Burgess

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 20:29:55
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Peter Burgess wrote:

If it has a map reference then it isn't a mine with no content and it is a useful entry. Here's a pseudo script for you....

DELETE MINELIST WITH DESCRIPTION = NULL AND LOCATION = NULL AND GALLERY.COUNT = 0

Go on - I dare you!

The only purpose a NULL entry has, surely, is as an encouragement for someone to add some content. Otherwise they just get in the way of a search for a mine that does have content!


Actually, its a serious suggestion - BACK UP THE DATABASE, prune it - see what reaction you get, and if things get a bit hot you can always put the deleted entries back again. Smile Or maybe you don't want backseat drivers... Big Grin

--

Hey, who turned out the lights!
IP: 92.3.154.87
royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 20:37:27
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It’s up to Simon and the admins.
I seriously feel that this website is one of the best things that ever happened to the mining exploration and history community, and I have no doubt that it will continue to grow and become the prime source of on line information.
However, I feel after the Brynyrafr duplication it’s a good time to look at the way that things are done, clean up the database, and possibly establish some conventions for the future.
In this respect, I was attempting to canvass opinion.


--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239
Cornish Pixie

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 20:44:36
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I for one appreciate you bringing this matter to our collective attention. A number of very useful comments and suggestions have arisen as a result. I am sure that the database will be greatly enhanced in the future and will continue to be a prime source of information for all those who are interested in mining heritage.

Might be an opportune time to say how much I have learnt from the fabulous photos and descriptions of mines which have been uploaded by so many people. We have a truly great resource here and thanks to those who tirelessly administer the database and website behind the scenes Thumb Up .

--

Den heb davaz a gollaz i dir
IP: 89.204.204.212
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