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Author Dumping the Wheal
spitfire

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Joined: 22/04/2008
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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 15:52:48
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This started on another thread, see under: Bryn yr Afr.

I regard the proposal to dump the prefix Wheal, to me a Cornishman, not only unnecessary but downright offensive!
The fault lies not with the prefix but the listing itself, where mines are listed with names they never had.
For instance: Wheal Rose ( East ) instead of as it should be East Wheal Rose and that should be listed under E accordingly.
Duplicate names are also not a problem if they are listed correctly, such as Wheal Fortune ( Gwennap ) or ( Wheal Fortune (Illogan) and so on.
Where a mine name has been changed or worked by another company this can be overcome by listing as: South Wheal Francis see also Basset Mines Ltd.
If however this proposal goes ahead I for one will not be uploading anything else on Aditnow

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spitfire
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Peter Burgess

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 15:59:51
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I agree with Spitfire one hundred percent.

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Cornish Pixie

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Joined: 02/01/2009
Location: Wicklow, Ireland

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 16:08:36
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I agree with Spitfire and his solution seems to me to very sensible.

In Cornwall we have been putting up with placenames being Anglicised and renamed for far too long. This trend is now being slowly reversed following the recent adoption of a standardised version of the Cornish language for the purposes of official promotional material and signage. I am heartened to see Cornish language placenames appearing with their Anglicised counterparts on street signs across the Duchy.

Placenames and mine names are an integral part of our culture and heritage as they undoubtedly are for our friends in other parts of the UK and beyond. I am confident that with a little sensitivity and the considerable skill and knowledge of people using Aditnow, this issue can be resolved to the satisfaction of all concerned.

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Den heb davaz a gollaz i dir
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royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 16:36:19
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Just run a query on my database "Prefix = Wheal"
1376 return values

Comments please?

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'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
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JR

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 16:37:23
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As a none Cornish and none Welsh speaker I would support Spitfire's comments. IP: 88.110.110.50
JR

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 16:40:54
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royfellows wrote:

Just run a query on my database "Prefix = Wheal"
1376 return values

Comments please?


I think of myself a fairly tech savy Roy, but my response to the above is; "eh?". Can you clarify please? Smile

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royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 16:48:48
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jr48 wrote:

royfellows wrote:

Just run a query on my database "Prefix = Wheal"
1376 return values

Comments please?


I think of myself a fairly tech savy Roy, but my response to the above is; "eh?". Can you clarify please? Smile


Sorry.
For a start I should be clear about 'where I am coming from' as they say. I am not coming from anywhere but offering what I have said before as a forum for discussion. As I have said, I am happy to go with the majority of opinion but feel that there is considerable scope to clean things up a bit.

To answer your question, Mr JR48 I have a database of mines that forms part of what could reasonably described as a major project, the total number of mines being 6077 at this point in time.
The data field “MineName” omits the word “Wheal” where the name of the mine normally includes this; however there is a separate data field for any prefix and what I did was simply query the mines database filtered on “Wheal”. The result of 1376 indicates the number of mines I have so far on my database that begin with “Wheal”


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Alec

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 16:51:51
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On no account should the prefix 'Wheal' be dumped in the interests of pragmatism. The term, the language and the culture are enough of a challenge to keep alive and meaningful to future generations and new residents of the area without one of the prime information providers on Cornish/Devon mining- this site- dropping this ancient label. Let's stick with it, please.

Alec K

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Alec
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derrickman

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 16:55:46
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I don't speak Cornish or Welsh, and this seems at times more like reinventing the wheel than anything else.

I agree with spitfire. There is a lot of ambiguity and variation in the naming of these old mines. If there are discrepancies in the past compilation of the database, which Roy Fellows appears to be saying in the original thread, that's a purely administrative issue.

cornishpixie's post, I frankly believe belongs elsewhere, possibly on another forum altogether. Mines and mining companies are and were legal and financial entities, described and named in their documentation and known on a daily basis by their paid workforce. Attempting to impose a naming system generated by 20th and 21st century academics, in a revised and revived language with several distinct variants, is bad historical practice and on a pureloy practical basis, serves only to confuse the issue.



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spitfire

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 17:03:49
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Derrickman wrote
cornishpixie's post, I frankly believe belongs elsewhere, possibly on another forum altogether. Mines and mining companies are and were legal and financial entities, described and named in their documentation and known on a daily basis by their paid workforce. Attempting to impose a naming system generated by 20th and 21st century academics, in a revised and revived language with several distinct variants, is bad historical practice and on a pureloy practical basis, serves only to confuse the issue.

Cornishpixie was illustrating what we've had to put up with for far too long, I only wish I had said it.
KERNOW BYS VYKEN

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JR

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 17:19:31
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royfellows wrote:

.....
To answer your question, Mr JR48 I have a database of mines that forms part of what could reasonably described as a major project, the total number of mines being 6077 at this point in time.
The data field “MineName” omits the word “Wheal” where the name of the mine normally includes this; however there is a separate data field for any prefix and what I did was simply query the mines database filtered on “Wheal”. The result of 1376 indicates the number of mines I have so far on my database that begin with “Wheal”


Thank you for the explanation Roy, I get it now. I wasn't trying to be argumentative (hense the Smile ), just a little slow today. However I don't find it a surprise that you have over 1300 mines with a "Wheal" prefix. If a mine has been known by a name during it's working life it seems reasonable to me that the prefix is retained (assuming that normal alphabet based logic applies thereafter so that "Wheal Jane" is listed before "Wheal Owles" for example and any changes of name are cross refered in the entry. Anyway 'nuff said. Hope this makes sense.

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royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 17:36:08
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You all OK, don’t worry.

In an attempt to avoid incurring anyone’s wrath, I shall simply post some facts.

#1 The Cornish mines database that was uploaded omitted the “Wheal”, and that is its current form as part of the aditnow database.

#2 My database has at this point in time 1376 mines whose name would correctly start with “Wheal”, it also has 241 other mines whose name start with the “W” character, so the total is 1617

#3 Assuming that the aditnow database has what I have, in the event that the mines whose names begin with “Wheal” were renamed to reflect this, then logic dictates that suddenly 1617 mines would all then be listed under “W”. Some form of standardisation I feel would be desirable in order to avoid duplication etc.

My Comment:
I have to sit back and ponder on this one, but the first thing that occurs would be a common scenario whereby somebody clicks “W” on the home page to see a list of mines, a list they certainly would get. I wonder what the download speed would be at a typical DSL speed of 4 megabits per second apart from anything else.
So before anyone gets hot under the collar, things are a long way from being as simple as they may seem to be.


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'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239 Edited: 20/05/2009 17:36:58 by royfellows
Peter Burgess

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 18:10:54
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Two questions:

1. Who is the database for?

2. What would the majority of people do if they wanted to look up a mine that started with the word "Wheal" ?





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stuey

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 18:16:02
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Keep the Wheal Please. Names as they appear on the 6" maps.

Kernow bys vyken!
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derrickman

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 18:20:44
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that's the key point... what does the map show? IP: 82.32.67.44
royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 18:30:25
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Peter Burgess wrote:

Two questions:

1. Who is the database for?

2. What would the majority of people do if they wanted to look up a mine that started with the word "Wheal" ?





I can only give my opinion/way of using the site.

The database is there for everyone who visits the site

If I wanted a mine that begins with "Wheal" I would check it out under both types of listing, with the "Wheal" and without. The logic of my reasoning being that it may be listed twice, and if I wanted to upload something, I would want it to be to the same instance of the mine that everyone else was using so as not to complicate things if a cleanup operation was on the cards, and also part of a natural feeling of not wanting to buck the trend.


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'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
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derrickman

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 18:35:19
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If I was looking for 'Wheal Jane' I would look under W..... IP: 82.32.67.44
Peter Burgess

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 18:39:40
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I suspect, Roy, that you are not a typical user. Neither am I. But if the site is to become ever more useful......

Perhaps I should have asked "Who are the people that we most want to use this site?"

My answer is anyone with an interest in mining and mining history (and exploration) whether casual or anorakian. As such, I try to imagine myself when first learning about old mines (in Cornwall), and feel sure that I would immediately go to "W". As I learnt my alphabet pretty well some few years earlier, I don't have a problem finding the big block of mines starting "Wheal" and then scanning down for, say, "Rose".

Equally, if looking for pictures of "East Wheal Rose" I am sure I would have immediately gone to "E" and found loads of other mines also starting with "East".

Sometimes I think we try to make things too complicated, and it is so unnecessary. Smile

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Peter Burgess

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 18:43:48
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One could draw a parallel with place names. Here in Sussex there are two villages called East Dean and two called West Dean. If I looked them up in a road atlas, they would be listed under E and W, not under D. And as there are two of each, the entries might well have the qualifers in brackets (E.Sussex) and (W.Sussex). If I had a county road atlas I would go and look it up, but I haven't!

And the proximity of the mines/villages should have no bearing on it either. East and West Grinstead are miles apart!


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royfellows

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Dumping the Wheal
Posted: 20/05/2009 18:59:57
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I do hear what you all saying.

And yes, as you say Peter, it is a good idea to keep things simple.

There is however simple and simple.

I have just clicked the "W" on my computer and measured the height of each line, its 10mm. (My resolution is 800X600)

Some people will see already where this is going.

If all the mines on my database that begin with "Wheal" were on adit now and all under "W" the scrolling height on the computer screen from top to bottom would be 16 metres.

No disrespect to anyone but this amongst other issues is something to think about.

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'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.145.219.239
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