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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author Power of Beam Engines
royfellows

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Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 17/02/2009 20:48:54
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I cant get this quote to work for some reason.

I was going to quote Mr Spitfires last but one.

If the condenser isn't really doing anything, then why did those marvellous engineers of the Victorian age incorporate one into their engines?


--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.150.35.187 Edited: 17/02/2009 20:52:57 by royfellows
ICLOK

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Joined: 19/02/2008
Location: Ripley, Derbyshire up North.

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 17/02/2009 20:49:14
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The cylinders are double acting and working in conjunction with each other on the same crank axle on a 2 cylinder loco or on say a 4 or 3 cylinder locomotive on 2 axles. The valve gears typically employed were key to efficiency in getting steam in and out the cylinders at high speed, clean controlled manner.



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Morlock

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 17/02/2009 20:49:49
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royfellows wrote:

I know nothing about steam locos, so please advise. I understand that there is a cylinder each side of the loco.
Are they acting together or alternately?


They can be 2,3 or 4 cylinder, 2 cylinder tend to have the crankpins at 90 degrees for dead centre starting purposes.
IP: 86.27.227.101
royfellows

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Joined: 13/06/2007
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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 17/02/2009 20:52:29
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I cant get this quote to work for some reason.

I was going to quote Mr Spitfires last but one.

If the condenser isn't really doing anything, then why did those marvellous engineers of the Victorian age incorporate one into their engines?


--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill' IP: 78.150.35.187
spitfire

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Location: Camborne

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Posted: 17/02/2009 20:55:38
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Two and four cylinder engines are set at 90 degrees 3cylinder at 120 and six cylinder at 60

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spitfire
IP: 81.141.104.182
Morlock

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 17/02/2009 20:58:04
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royfellows wrote:


If the condenser isn't really doing anything, then why did those marvellous engineers of the Victorian age incorporate one into their engines?


It's all to do with this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle.

The bottom line is if you have steam acting on a piston at say 20 PSI above atmospheric pressure you can increase that effective pressure by up tp 14.7 PSI if you have a vacuum under the piston = more power!
IP: 86.27.227.101
royfellows

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 17/02/2009 20:58:12
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Gentlemen, I have enjoyed your company and the lively discussion, but I am now shutting down for the evening.

EDIT
Final thought before I shut down. We are never all going to agree on this one.


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'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 78.150.35.187 Edited: 17/02/2009 20:59:55 by royfellows
spitfire

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Posted: 17/02/2009 21:16:31
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Before I go I ought to tell you I have owned and worked with steam engines for over fifty years

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spitfire
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mikebee62

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Posted: 17/02/2009 21:24:26
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I have just uploaded a document refering to the sale of plant at Grenville United mines which I think you will all find interesting especially the price!!

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mappakernwick

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 18/02/2009 22:18:40
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Thanks everyone for the info, Just had some info semt by Kinglsey for comparison:

Robinson's engine (80in.) at South Crofty built 1854 was 335hp.

Taylor's engine at East Pool & Agar (90in.), built 1892 is rated at 425hp.

I have tried using the formula but my answers are out by a magnatude, think I have unit problems. Schoolboy error stuff!I'll keep trying changing the units until somthing looks semi sensible.

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Peter Burgess

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Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 18/02/2009 22:32:20
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I just like watching and listening to them working. I'm not bothered about anything more technical than that. Confused

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Morlock

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 19/02/2009 03:27:58
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mappakernwick wrote:

Thanks everyone for the info, Just had some info semt by Kinglsey for comparison:

Robinson's engine (80in.) at South Crofty built 1854 was 335hp.

Taylor's engine at East Pool & Agar (90in.), built 1892 is rated at 425hp.

I have tried using the formula but my answers are out by a magnatude, think I have unit problems. Schoolboy error stuff!I'll keep trying changing the units until somthing looks semi sensible.



Looking at the No 1 engine at Crofton the HP required to lift 12 tons/min to 40 feet would be very roughly 32 HP.

A rough calculation of the steam cylinder HP at 12 strokes/min seems to come out at 72.5 HP (at an MEP of 6 PSI @ 26 HG Vacuum).

An 80 inch piston is 3.26 times the area and would work out at 236 HP for the same steam pressure, I would guess that South Crofty had a MEP of 9 PSI.
The difference between the apparent HP required and the HP available from the engine is all to do with friction and the power required to accelerate the mass of the engine/water column from rest each stoke.

Edit: No allowance needed at Crofton for increased discharge head.
IP: 82.20.9.89 Edited: 19/02/2009 04:20:12 by Morlock
spitfire

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 19/02/2009 15:01:42
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Working on the formula that I first posted ( which I explained was a simplistic one ) my figures for the Robinson engine come out at just 6HP less than the 335 given by Kingsley.

My figures are based on a MEP of 24lbs stroke 10 feet at 10 strokes per min

This engine has been pushed to 12 strokes per min so that would increase the figure even more

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spitfire
IP: 81.141.108.15
Morlock

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 19/02/2009 15:17:24
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Do you have any figures for gall/min pumped and the total head pumped against?
Would be interesting to see the water HP versus engine HP.
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spitfire

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Posted: 19/02/2009 16:36:02
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From memory I think the rising main was 15" pumping from a depth of 335 fathoms this would deliver 520 gal's per min'
All pumps were plunger pumps at 50 fathom stages with the exception of the puppy lift which was a bucket lift.
I make that 17,420 gallons in motion at each stroke, that would be just over 771/2 tons

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spitfire
IP: 81.141.108.15 Edited: 19/02/2009 17:01:57 by spitfire
Morlock

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Posted: 19/02/2009 20:35:16
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Impressive, just to overcome the static head will take 270 hp. IP: 82.26.27.30 Edited: 19/02/2009 20:50:20 by Morlock
Peter Burgess

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 19/02/2009 20:55:23
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That's very roughly the laden weight (give or take a bag or two) of an Airbus A380, is it not ICLOK ?

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IP: 92.2.125.24
ICLOK

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Power of Beam Engines
Posted: 19/02/2009 21:21:47
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I think the A380 is 560T take off weight, so its even more impressive effectively lifting heavier... in fact thats a huge weight.... same as picking up 6 class 47 diesel locomotives in a row !!!! Shocked



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Peter Burgess

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Posted: 19/02/2009 21:44:13
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[web link]


Big Grin

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ICLOK

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Posted: 19/02/2009 22:32:34
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Fabulous.... I have to admit I taught my self alot of stuff with lego.... I remember making my first stephensons link motion... and it kinda worked... basic mechanics... but I was only 9!!! Laugh

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