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Mine Exploration Forum

Author Welsh Help?
grahami

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Joined: 29/01/2007
Location: Telford, Shropshire

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 18/11/2008 12:54:01
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Would anybody care to loan me their brains to do a bit of translating from Hanes Plwyf Ffestiniog ? There are a couple of extracts I'd be very grateful if someone could translate for me... I tried to learn Cymraeg many many years ago, but regrettably the time eluded me and my brain is now so stuffed full of Microsoft error messages there isn't room for any thinking....

Cheers - pm me if you like!

Grahami

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The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
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robnorthwales

Joined: 21/05/2008
Location: Denbighshire, North wales

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 18/11/2008 16:20:06
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I can't be of any help (unless it's REALLY basic welsh), but I do have a few friends for whom welsh is their first language, so I will pass anything to them if needed. I suspect you will get plenty of offers here though.

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Take a photo, it might not be there tomorrow ... a lesson I learnt the hard way
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LAP

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Joined: 04/02/2007
Location: Somewhere between Carnforth/Carn-Ffyrdd, and Milnthorpe.

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 18/11/2008 16:33:06
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There's quite a few fluent welsh speakers on here; several from around Blaenau. I can understand the meaning of written welsh, well sometimes, but culdn't translate it; a lot on here could though I think :D


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Aon la, bha an Uamh-Bhest ann an loch dubh, air Eilean Arainn...
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Manicminer

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Joined: 29/04/2007
Location: North Wales

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 18/11/2008 19:56:46
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I'm fluent. I could translate a couple of extracts.

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Gold is where you find it
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merddinemrys

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Joined: 13/03/2006
Location: Barmouth

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 18/11/2008 21:07:29
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Are copies of Hanes Plwyf Ffestiniog easy to come by?

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Life is a place, where we dig in a hole, to earn enough money, to buy enough bread, to get enough strength, to dig in a hole.
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BertyBasset

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Joined: 13/12/2007
Location: Caernarfon, North Wales

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 18/11/2008 23:04:12
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Can do some translation if you like. Post here or email robin_grCHEESEiffiths_glassTOASTY@hotmail.com (remove savoury snack - hmm, maybe that should have been a Welsh Rarebit)

Robin
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hymac580c

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Joined: 28/05/2007
Location: Blaenau Ffestiniog

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 19/11/2008 08:20:36
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I am bilangual, I can look at a paragraph in Welsh and read it in English and vice versa. But my written grammer is absolutely awfull by now. If you are stuck I could do a few pages.
I have a copy of 'Hanes Plwyf Ffestiniog' written in the late 1800's. It tells of the history of the Ffestiniog area going back to about Roman times and beond and a section on the slate mines etc. I had thought of scanning it in pdf.

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By the time you realise your father was right, you will have a son or daughter that will tell you that you are wrong.
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grahami

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Joined: 29/01/2007
Location: Telford, Shropshire

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 19/11/2008 10:07:59
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Thanks everyone - I've transcribed this extract on Votty & Bowydd - without too many mistakes, I hope. A translation would be of interest to everyone, I think. I've only got a photocopy of a few pages - just the quarry bits, however I'm sure this is the second version, written in 1882 by G.J.Williams and which was based on the first of 1870 (Ffestinfab). I dont mind transcribing if someone doesn't mind translating!

Hanes Plwyf Ffestiniog

LORD- “The Votty and Bowydd Slate Quarry Company, Limited:”-

Y mae y chwarel hon yn agos o ran safle ac adeg dechreuad ei gweithio i’r Diphwys. Fodd bynag, gweithiwyd y ddwy heb gyfreithio o gwbl yn nghylch y terfynau, a phan fu unwaith yn lled anhawdd cytuno, galwyd rhai o’r hen drigolion I ddweyd yr hyn a wyddent am y terfynau, a dibenwyd mewn heddwch. Decreuwyd gweithio yn y fan hon gan Arglwydd Newborough (tad y presenol), oddiwrth yr hwn y galwyd y gwaith yn “Chwarel Lord.” Dywed rhai fod hon wedi ei hagor o flaen y Diphwys. Os felly, rhoddwyd hi I fyny am le mwy cyfleus yr ochr arall i’r Ceunant.

Yn y flwyddyn 1801, ail ddechreuwyd gweithio yma pan oedd masnach yn bywiogi ar ol caledi y flwyddyn 1800; ond buan y gadawyd hi. Pan oedd wedi ei gorchuddio a brwyn yn 1823, dechreuwyd ei gweithio gan frawd yr Arglwydd Newborough presenol. Er fod y llechfaen yn hynod hawdd ei gweithio, a dim ond ychydig o waste yn nglyn a hi, nid oedd yn talu ond ychydig i’w pherchenog, yr hwn o ganlyniad a’i gwerthodd yn 1828 i Mri. Roberts – brodyr o Gaernarfon. Yr oedd masnach yn farwaidd iawn pan gymerodd y boneddigion hyn y chwarel, a dichon mad oeddynt hwythau yn ei gweithio yn y modd doethaf. Yn 1830 siriolodd masnach, newidiwyd y goruchwylwyr, ac aeth y chwarel yn malen yn lled dda am ysbaid. Yn mhen rhai blynyddoedd ymunodd y perchenogion hyn a phersonau o Liverpool, mewn masnach, aethant yn feth-dalwyr (1833), trwy yr hyn y collodd y gweithwyr lawer o’u harian.

Yn mehn rhai misoedd, cymerwyd y chwarel gan Edwin Shelton, Ysw., a J.W.Greaves, Ysw. Gweithiwyd hi yn llwyddianus am flynyddau, hyd nes ymddangosai bron wedi ei “gweithio adref.” Bu Mr. Shelton farw; cymerodd Mr.Greaves ei ran o’r chwarel, a gweithiodd hy hyd nes y death y bryd-les i fyny.

Decheuwyd gweithio chwarel arall ar dir Arglwydd Newborough, y agos I Hafod-dy, Cwmbowydd. Cymerodd rhai o’r chwarelwyr y lle I’w weithio ar ol i’r fasnach lechau ddyfod yn llewyrchus; ond gwerthwyd y lle hwn yn gystal a “Lord,” i Mr Percival, a gweithid hwy ganddo dan yr enw “Votty and Bowydd.” Gyrodd Mr.W.Rowlands lefelydd drwy y “caled” a darganfyddodd “Y llygad newydd,” yr hwn a roddodd bwysigrwydd ar Chwarel “Lord,” ac a fu yn foddion adfywiad i amryw o’r chwarelau eraill.

Yn 1875, decreuwyd gweithio y chwarel gan gwmni newydd terfynol, gyda chyfalaf o £80,000 o dan yr enw “The Votty and Bowydd Slate Quarries Company Limited.”

Y goruchwylwyr:-
Dan Arglwydd Newborough:- Mri. George Peters; John Hughes; a Robert Williams, yr hawn oedd yr un pryd yn oruchwyliwr yn Llanllyfni.
Dan y brodyr Roberts:- Mri. John Hughes; Robert Jones; ei fab Thomas Jones, Llenyrch-y-moch; a David Jones, wedi hyny o Gwmorthin.
Dan Mri. Shelton a Greaves:- Mri. Hugh Jones, Coedmadog (mab Mr.John Hughes, uchod); Owen Jones; ac Owen Roberts, presenol of Gaernarfon.
Dan Mr. Percival:- Mr William Rowlands
Dan y Limited Company:- Mri. Walker; Rowlands; a T.G.Jenkins.


--

The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
IP: 212.219.117.101
BertyBasset

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Joined: 13/12/2007
Location: Caernarfon, North Wales

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 19/11/2008 11:21:35
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The following is a rough attempt at translation - accuracy not guaranteed!


This quarry is close in terms of location and start of working to Diphwys. However, the two were worked without the boundaries being legally defined, and when once there was disagreement, the old inhabitants were called upon to say what they knew about the boundaries, and things were resolved peacefully. Work commenced at this location by Lord Newborough (the current Lord’s father), after which the workings were called “Lord Quarry”. Some say it was opened before Diphwys. If so, it was given up for a more convenient location across the gorge.
In the year 1801, working recommenced here when trade picked up following the hard conditions of 1800; but soon it was left. When it was covered in bracken in 1823, it began to be worked by the current Lord Newborough’s brother. Although the slate was particularly easy to work, and consisted of little waste, it did not pay the owner very well, who consequently sold it in 1828 to Messrs. Roberts, brothers from Caernarfon. Trade was very quiet when these gentlemen took over the quarry, and maybe they didn’t work it in the wisest possible way. In 1830 trading conditions improved, the supervisors were changed, and the quarry came along quite well for a period. In a few years, the owners joined some people from Liverpool in trade, they went bankrupt (1833), through this the workers lost a lot of money.
Within a few months, the quarry was taken over by Edwin Shelton Esq. and J.W. Greaves Esq. It was worked successfully for some years, until it appeared almost to have been “worked home”. Mr Shelton died; Mr Greaves took his share of the quarry, and worked it until the lease came up.
Work commenced on another quarry on Lord Newborough’s land, close to Hafod-dy, Cwmbowydd. Some of the quarrymen took the place to work when the slate began to flourish; but this place, together with “Lord” were sold to Mr Percival, and they were worked by him under the name “Votty and Bowydd”. Mr W. Rowlands drove levels through the “hard” and discovered “The new eye”, this which gave importance to the “Lord” quarry, and which gave new life to several other quarries.
In 1875, work commenced in the quarry by a final/terminal new company, with a capital of £80,000 under the name “The Votty and Bowydd Slate Quarries Limited”.
The supervisor/agent/controller (s):
Under Lord Newborough:- Messrs. George Peters; John Hughes; and Robert Williams, who was at the time supervisor at Llanllyfni
Under the Roberts brothers:- Messrs. John Hughes; Robert Jones; his son Thomas Jones, Llenyrch-y-moch; and David Jones, after then from Cwmorthin.
Under Messrs. Shelton and Greaves:- Messrs. Hugh Jones, Coedmadog (Mr.John Hughes’s son, above); Owen Jones; and Owen Roberts, currently of Caernarfon.
Under Mr. Percival:- Mr William Rowlands
Under the Limited Company:- Messrs. Walker; Rowlands; and T.G. Jenkins

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pwllheli

Joined: 30/09/2007

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 19/11/2008 11:38:00
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Translation included here - This quarry is close - in terms of location and opening to Diphwys. However, both were worked without consideration of boundaries and there was once difficulty regarding agreement, some of the older inhabitants were called upon to relate what they knew about boundaries and it wqas amicably settled. It was Lord Newborough (father of present one) that started working here - from this it takes its name “Chwarel Lord.” Some say that this was opened before Diphwys. If so, it was given up in favour of a more convenient location on the other side of the valley.

In 1801, they re-started working when the maket picked up after the hardship of 1800; but it was quickly left. When it had become overgrown by 1823, work was re-started by the brother of the current Lord Newborough presenol. Despite the slate being easy to work and producing little waste, it did not pay well enough for the owner and as a result he sold it in 1828 to Messrs Roberts – brothers from Caernarfon. The market was dead when these took over and they probably did not work the miner too sensibly. In 1830 the market picked up, supervisors were changed and the quarry flourished for a while. Ijn a few years, the owners joined up in a business with men from Liverpool but became bankrupt (1833), and through this, many men lost money.

After a few months, the quarry was taken over by Edwin Shelton, Esq, and J.W.Greaves, Esq. It was worked successfully for years - almost until 'worked out'. Mr. Shelton died; Mr.Greaves took over and worked the quarry until the lease ran out.

Work on another quarry on Lord Newborough's land, close to Hafod-dy, Cwmbowydd. Soime quarrymen started working there after the market improved; but this too was sold out to the “Lord” to Mr Percival, (????) and it was worked under the name “Votty and Bowydd.” Mr.W.Rowlands drove levels through the "hard/gritstone??" and found New Vein which made Chwarel “Lord,” some importance and a means of reviving various other cquarries.

In 1875, the quarry was worked by a final new company, with capital of £80,000. This bore the name “The Votty and Bowydd Slate Quarries Company Limited.”

The supervisors were:-
Under Lord Newborough:- Messrs. George Peters; John Hughes; a Robert Williams, who was at the time a supervisor in Llanllyfni.
Under the brothers Roberts:- Messrs. John Hughes; Robert Jones; and his son Thomas Jones, Llenyrch-y-moch; and David Jones, from Cwmorthin after that.
Under Messrs. Shelton and Greaves:- Mri. Hugh Jones, Coedmadog (son of the afore-mentioned Mr.John Hughes); Owen Jones; ac Owen Roberts, currently of Caernarfon.
Under Mr. Percival:- Mr William Rowlands
Under the Limited Company:- Messrs. Walker; Rowlands; a T.G.Jenkins.
IP: 86.148.70.202
pwllheli

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 19/11/2008 11:43:09
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There is an excellent 9-page report by Rev Robert Owen of Neuadd Ddu in the current Welsh language magazine of the Blaenau historical soc. "Cloddfeydd Llechau Ffestiniog" (Ffestiniog Slate Mines).

It was written in 1868 and published in Y Traethodydd.
It provides a fascinating account of what was going on 160 years ago.

The magazine is just out and costs £2-50.
IP: 86.148.70.202
grahami

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Joined: 29/01/2007
Location: Telford, Shropshire

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Welsh Help?
Posted: 19/11/2008 12:07:34
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Many Thanks to everyone for this and for doing it so quickly - it adds a little more to the plot. I'm slowly tying together an outline history of Votty, which I'll post when it's done.

I have a translation of some parts of Robert Owen's "Gloddfeydd Llechau Ffestiniog" Traethodydd 1868 which was done (I think) by Merfyn Williams of Plas TanyBwlch for one of the courses many years ago. There are some lovely quotable bits in it:

"In the beginning there was God and then there was slate!"

Grahami

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