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Author Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
AR

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Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Knot far from Knotlow in the middle of the Peak District

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 01/05/2008 21:52:37
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carnkie wrote:

I see what you mean. As I mentioned in an earlier post Trevithick mentions that in 1702 Savery is said to have erected the first steam pumping engine in Cornwall, of which he wrote thus in ‘Miners Friend’:-

“ I have known in Cornwall a work with three lifts of about 18 feet each, lift and carry a 31/2 inch bore; that cost 42 shillings a day. I dare undertake that my engine shall raise you as much water for eight-pence as will cost you a shilling to raise the like with your old engines in coal pits.”

I hope that makes more sense to you than it does to me because it’s not obvious from that that he actually had an engine in Cornwall and the ref. to coal pits is suspicious because none existed in Cornwall.

Which leaves us where exactly.
Surrender


This read to me like Trevithick is commenting on how hopelessly coal-hungry the earlier engines were for very little lift, and the bit about old engines in coal pits intimates that his engine is cheaper to run even than a Newcomen or Watt engine on a colliery which has easy access to cheap fuel - what does everyone else think of this interpretation?

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carnkie

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Joined: 07/09/2007
Location: camborne, cornwall

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 16:16:11
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Just came across this in cornwall-calling whilst looking for something else. It's within a description of Wheal Vor.

1698 It is (Vor) thought to have been the first mine to use a Savery pump.

Mind it's a bit odd because the same page says that Wheal Vor should have been a success but never was. Strange because it was one of the great tin mines.

Confused
IP: 88.105.239.244
royfellows

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Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 16:39:40
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Yes and No
Savery's engine at Wheal Vor, which is not actually proven, was incapable of lifting water more than 50 feet, so would rank alongside the proverbial chocolate fire guard.
The generally accepted first PRACTICAL use, (please excuse caps but I need to emphasise my point) was at one of the Earl of Dudley’s coal mines, near to where I live.
If you visit the Black County Museum, apart from the dubious pleasure of hearing recorded voices with accents similar to mine, you will be able to see a full size working replica of the original.


--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 84.13.145.197 Edited: 07/05/2008 16:42:32 by royfellows
JR

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Location: Lurking near Hereford

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 17:11:02
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I hesitate to correct you Roy since I've come to regard you as one of a select group able to provide a 'definitive' answer or definition on historical mining practice. (Here comes the 'however') However the responce you gave made it read as if a Savery was employed at Dudley when in fact a Newcomen engine was erected. I'm sure that you know this since you note the replica engine at the Black Country Museum, but people unfamiliar with the area could be confused.
I'm a Blackcountryman by birth (someone had to be!) but live in Herefordshire now. Do they still say "Ow am Ya?" instead of "have a nice day" at McDonalds?
IP: 88.109.152.61
carnkie

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 17:11:15
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royfellows wrote:

Yes and No
Savery's engine at Wheal Vor, which is not actually proven, was incapable of lifting water more than 50 feet, so would rank alongside the proverbial chocolate fire guard.


That had crossed my mind as well. I was really more interested in the comment that Wheal Vor should have been a success but never was. Between 1824 and 1830 Wheal Vor mined and smelted a quarter of all the tin produced in Cornwall.

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royfellows

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 17:37:48
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jr48 wrote:

I hesitate to correct you Roy since I've come to regard you as one of a select group able to provide a 'definitive' answer or definition on historical mining practice. (Here comes the 'however') However the responce you gave made it read as if a Savery was employed at Dudley when in fact a Newcomen engine was erected. I'm sure that you know this since you note the replica engine at the Black Country Museum, but people unfamiliar with the area could be confused.
I'm a Blackcountryman by birth (someone had to be!) but live in Herefordshire now. Do they still say "Ow am Ya?" instead of "have a nice day" at McDonalds?



Sorry, I really apologise if I was misleading, I should have emphasised that the 1712 engine was of course a Newcomen.
But I did equate Savery’s with the chocolate fire guard, and would have thought the implication obvious that the 1712 engine a different design.

Now as a special punishment for picking me up I shall bore you with an extract from a book that I am writing.

Reads:

Now believe it or not, it was as early as 1698 that a Mr Thomas Savery secured a patent for a machine that he had developed described as “a machine for the raiseing of water by the impellant force of fire”, to “be of great use and advantage for Drayning of Mines” Looking back through history one encounters inventions that appear startling taking into consideration their time. Like Puckle’s machine gun of 1718, there is some conjecture about whether or not these inventions actually worked, never mind saw service. Savery’s engine is however accredited with being able to lift water for height of more than 50 feet, OK it worked, but just about as useful as the proverbial chocolate fireguard in a deeper mine.
About the same time, Thomas Newcomen was working on the same problem. The result was the first of what was to become known as “the Cornish beam engine”. Newcomen’s design was a large cylinder with an internal piston connected to a massive overhead beam pivoted on the outer wall of the engine house. Filling the cylinder below the piston with steam and then rapidly condensing it with a jet of cold water would cause a vacuum in the cylinder, therefore allowing atmospheric pressure to force down the piston drawing down the indoor end of the beam. The outside end of the beam would be connected to a timber pump rod running down the shaft the weight of which would be raised by the engine. The descending weight of the pump rod would force upward the column of water in the rising main. The mechanism of this I will describe later. This type of engine became logically known as the “atmospheric engine”. Metalwork such as in pipe work and boilers in those days wasn’t up to very much, and the big advantage was the very low steam pressure required to operate the engine. Boilers were very crude, however at this very low pressure leaks could be patched with nothing more sophisticated than a sod and a brick! The big problem was efficiency. These engines would consume huge quantities of coal for the work that they did.
However, this engine, which unlike Savery’s was self-acting, was immediately successful and one was first installed in 1712. This was not in a metal mine but in one of the Earl of Dudley’s coal mines in the Midlands, not far from where I live. This engine became logically known as “the 1712 engine” and is regarded as a milestone in the development of mining practice. In fact a working reproduction can be seen today at the Black Country Museum at Dudley, West Midlands. This is a good day out, trust me.
Later James Watt was to develop the true steam engine. That is one working on the pressure of steam itself. Many different designs were in use during the nineteenth century, which are way beyond the scope of this book. However, it is appropriate to describe briefly the workings of the later examples. By the second half of the nineteenth century the optimum working pressure of 40 pounds per square inch was fairly standard. Three valves, the steam, equilibrium, and exhaust valves operated the engine. Steam at full working pressure was allowed into the cylinder above the piston, therefore forcing it down the bore of the cylinder. At a certain point the valve would close, thus allowing the expansive power of the steam to complete the stroke. This completed the power, or “indoor” stroke, raising the heavy pump rods in the shaft. Next, the weight of the pump rods would cause the beam to tilt in the other direction raising the piston back up the bore of the cylinder, known as the “outdoor” stroke. Now, and this is where the genius of the design comes in, the equilibrium valve would open thus allowing the now ‘spent’ steam to fill the cavity below the piston. Just before the piston reached the top of the cylinder the equilibrium valve would close to cushion the final movement of the piston. Next the exhaust valve would open allowing connection of the space below the piston with the condenser. This would cause the steam in this area to condense thus creating a vacuum below the piston. This vacuum below the piston was necessary to initialise the power stroke before the steam valve opened. However, it can be easily appreciated that this engine now harnesses both the power of high pressure steam with the power of atmospheric pressure as used in the earlier Newcomen engines. The valves were operated automatically and all that was required to get the thing started was to complete a few strokes by manually operating the valves, once vacuum was obtained below the piston it would run on its own. This design of engine was to reach its heyday in the 1880s, even seeing service well into this century. The massive 90 inch engine at Taylors Shaft at the East Pool mine in Cornwall was in use up to 1954.


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'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
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JR

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 17:58:35
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I am duly chastised. Thank you for a very interesting read.

Thumbs Up

Err...While commenting on the East Pool engine you said that it was in use up to 1954. That was last century.

I'm not normally picky but...................I'll fetch me coat and leave quietly shall I ?

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IP: 88.109.152.61 Edited: 07/05/2008 18:09:56 by JR
carnkie

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Location: camborne, cornwall

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 18:02:14
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When can we expect the second extract Roy? Smile IP: 88.105.130.238
royfellows

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 18:09:26
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When the book is published!

--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 84.13.145.197
carnkie

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 18:37:46
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Thought that might be the case. Wink
This was the Newcomen at East Pool 1746.

flink]POOL-EAST-Mine-Archive-Album-Image-001/">

(click image to open full size image in new window)
IP: 88.105.171.236
carnkie

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 18:41:45
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Thought that might be the case. Wink
This was the Newcomen at East Pool 1746.

flink]POOL-EAST-Mine-Archive-Album-Image-001/">

(click image to open full size image in new window)
IP: 88.105.171.236
carnkie

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 18:43:03
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No doubt it's me but cannot get the link to work properly. Confused IP: 88.105.171.236
royfellows

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 07/05/2008 19:41:20
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jr48 wrote:

I am duly chastised. Thank you for a very interesting read.

Thumbs Up

Err...While commenting on the East Pool engine you said that it was in use up to 1954. That was last century.

I'm not normally picky but...................I'll fetch me coat and leave quietly shall I ?


I missed this earlier JR, remember what happened to the other JR?
No seriously, thanks. This is why any sensible writer has proof readers. Anyone else out there considering writing a book will do well to remember this.
Anyone can write a book and think its good, but its what others think that counts. And basically, its a good idea always to take on board other peoples point of view.
Thank you again jr48.

--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 84.13.145.197
royfellows

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Thomas Saverys' MINERS FRIEND
Posted: 08/05/2008 08:49:31
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Take a look at this and see what you think. When I discovered it I informed Roy M who passed the info onto the CAU, I dont know if its still there.
Early beam engines had wooden pistons, I believe that this artefact is just that. The pistons in beam engines were flat, not at all like the pistons that one thinks of in relation to car engines. Its at New Consols (Wheal Martha) Lucket.



(click image to open full size image in new window)

--

'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
IP: 84.13.145.197 Edited: 08/05/2008 08:51:08 by royfellows
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