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Author Panning for Gold illegal?
Ian A

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 28/10/2016 07:59:33
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I seem to recall an instance involving a case near Dolgellau where the now defunct CCW (presently NRW) prosecuted a man for panning for gold in the river in the Coed y Brenin.

I seem to recall that their argument was it was disturbing "fresh water shrimps" (which the man contested did not exist) and maybe the CCW had it designated SSSI (meaning he would need a PDO in any event).

I also seem to recall that the UK Gold panning association (sorry, don't know their actual name) aided the man in his defence.

Nevertheless, I recall he lost the case.

Can anyone point me to this and/or any legal specifics that ban or prohibit recreational panning please?

(The reason for asking is that I have been asked and I don't know the answer except that I am pretty sure it is illegal. I am aware commercial panning would require a licence).

Thanks Wink

Ian

--

A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.
IP: 94.6.90.126 Edited: 28/10/2016 08:09:10 by Ian A
NouveauRiche

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 28/10/2016 09:44:49
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Hey. So from what I know, one thing is the area is within the national park and therefore falls under any environmental legislation put forward by the Snowdonia National Park authority and NRW. The area is a CROW access area and therefore falls under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 which has quite a number of enforced restrictions for your access - you can find more out here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-access-land-management-rights-and-responsibilities


Additionally, obviously the Afon Mawddach catchment area was severely damaged by the metal mining in the area, and I would imagine that the river bed itself is still quite polluted and any significant disturbance to the river bed would greatly increase the re-release of pollutants from the bed to downstream areas/resuspension in the water column. The area has now recovered greatly since the environment agency set out certain mine waste regulations. Additionally, the catchment area of the Afon Mawddach falls within two Special Conservation Areas, three Sites of Special Scientific Interest and one Natural Nature Reserve. The Salmon and Freshwaters Fisheries act 1975 also makes it illegal to disturb any spawning beds etc. There is also legislation protecting sea lampreys further down in the Mawddach estuary...

Just from all of that, you can see how complex things can get - and ALSO....
"If you fail to notify us about your intention to carry out one of the listed operations for your SSSI, or of damaging or destroying any of the features of special interest, you may be fined up to £20,000 in the Magistrate’s Court, or an unlimited amount in the Crown Court. The courts can also order you to restore the site at your own expense." - laws on SSSIs

Sorry this isn't much help. To get a better explanation you would be better contacting Natural Resources Wales... however, good luck as it took me 5 months to get a licence to collect undersized shellfish for research!!!SadSadShockedShockedShockedShocked

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The Fresh Prince of Portreath

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 28/10/2016 13:10:45
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Camo overalls are about £20.

What nanny doesn't see won't upset her.
IP: 81.140.40.222
Daggers

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 28/10/2016 13:32:43
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As far as I am aware, all gold in the UK belongs to the crown, even the stuff in the river beds, and therefore requires a license to pan.

If you don't have a license then you will probably get a visit from her majesty's heavy mob called the Inland Revenue Service for failure to pay duty on mineral rights.

And may end up spending some time in the stocks.


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ttxela

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 28/10/2016 14:34:22
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I found this;

https://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/rural-and-coastal/minerals/gold-panning/

IP: 188.39.178.242
Manicminer

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 28/10/2016 19:35:23
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Truth is nobody actually knows. There is no British Law that states panning is illegal.

The bloke in question had gold fever really bad and made it quite clear that he was going to dig the Afon Wen from the lower stone road bridge as far as the concrete road bridge a distance of about a mile and a half.
The FC asked him to move but he refused (on multiple occasions ) . CCW were telling the FC that they would prosecute them for allowing the panner to dig a big hole (they had the power to prosecute any landowner for not managing the land in a 'proper' way). The FC started to **** their pants and things escalated but the panner kept digging his heels in.
This went on for months and the CCW had the 'story' on the TV News and the papers.
The FC eventually turned up with some papers and he went away.
As far as I am aware there was no court case therefore no ruling so legally nobody knows. The Crown claim they own it, the FC can't give anyone the right to remove minerals as they don't own any. It's a bit he says/she says.

Since then the FC, CCW and EA have joined forces and the CCW part act on things that have been passed by the EU.


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legendrider

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 29/10/2016 08:43:36
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If it sounds like Profit or Pleasure then its going to be illegal/disallowed in some way, shape or form!

no-brainer! Roll Eyes

MARK

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festina lente IP: 86.183.105.53
silver

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 29/10/2016 12:55:31
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If you want to feel the heat of some nosey buggers eyeballs sorry I mean park warden then take a trip down hopes nose. But don't forget your rod and tackle! Laugh IP: 93.186.31.97
RAMPAGE

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 29/10/2016 19:35:08
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NouveauRiche wrote:

Hey. So from what I know, one thing is the area is within the national park and therefore falls under any environmental legislation put forward by the Snowdonia National Park authority and NRW. The area is a CROW access area and therefore falls under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 which has quite a number of enforced restrictions for your access - you can find more out here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-access-land-management-rights-and-responsibilities


Additionally, obviously the Afon Mawddach catchment area was severely damaged by the metal mining in the area, and I would imagine that the river bed itself is still quite polluted and any significant disturbance to the river bed would greatly increase the re-release of pollutants from the bed to downstream areas/resuspension in the water column. The area has now recovered greatly since the environment agency set out certain mine waste regulations. Additionally, the catchment area of the Afon Mawddach falls within two Special Conservation Areas, three Sites of Special Scientific Interest and one Natural Nature Reserve. The Salmon and Freshwaters Fisheries act 1975 also makes it illegal to disturb any spawning beds etc. There is also legislation protecting sea lampreys further down in the Mawddach estuary...

Just from all of that, you can see how complex things can get - and ALSO....
"If you fail to notify us about your intention to carry out one of the listed operations for your SSSI, or of damaging or destroying any of the features of special interest, you may be fined up to £20,000 in the Magistrate’s Court, or an unlimited amount in the Crown Court. The courts can also order you to restore the site at your own expense." - laws on SSSIs

Sorry this isn't much help. To get a better explanation you would be better contacting Natural Resources Wales... however, good luck as it took me 5 months to get a licence to collect undersized shellfish for research!!!SadSadShockedShockedShockedShocked


No wonder nothing is ever achieved in this county.

Too many people employed to stop things happening vs people that makes things happen.
IP: 87.224.72.55
royfellows

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 29/10/2016 19:56:58
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Exactly!
Our main manufacturing industry is rods for own backs.

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Ian A

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 29/10/2016 20:01:35
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RAMPAGE wrote:



No wonder nothing is ever achieved in this county.

Too many people employed to stop things happening vs people that makes things happen.




Exactly Sad

Ian

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lab rat

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 29/10/2016 20:23:27
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silver wrote:

If you want to feel the heat of some nosey buggers eyeballs sorry I mean park warden then take a trip down hopes nose. But don't forget your rod and tackle! Laugh


Probably because Hopes Nose is SSSI


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Ian A

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 29/10/2016 22:02:39
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lab rat wrote:


Probably because Hopes Nose is SSSI



.... It's the SSSI element that is the root of the concern around the Coed-y-Brenin area. I am pretty sure the case in question (I think the same one Manic Miner is referring to) was a SSSI issue.

Blink

Ian

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silver

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 30/10/2016 01:23:38
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The SSSI was implemented principally for the colonial corals which are sequence boundary markers in the lower devonian of south devon not for the yellow stuff. Smile IP: 93.186.31.80
NouveauRiche

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 31/10/2016 09:27:55
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RAMPAGE wrote:

NouveauRiche wrote:

Hey. So from what I know, one thing is the area is within the national park and therefore falls under any environmental legislation put forward by the Snowdonia National Park authority and NRW. The area is a CROW access area and therefore falls under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 which has quite a number of enforced restrictions for your access - you can find more out here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-access-land-management-rights-and-responsibilities


Additionally, obviously the Afon Mawddach catchment area was severely damaged by the metal mining in the area, and I would imagine that the river bed itself is still quite polluted and any significant disturbance to the river bed would greatly increase the re-release of pollutants from the bed to downstream areas/resuspension in the water column. The area has now recovered greatly since the environment agency set out certain mine waste regulations. Additionally, the catchment area of the Afon Mawddach falls within two Special Conservation Areas, three Sites of Special Scientific Interest and one Natural Nature Reserve. The Salmon and Freshwaters Fisheries act 1975 also makes it illegal to disturb any spawning beds etc. There is also legislation protecting sea lampreys further down in the Mawddach estuary...

Just from all of that, you can see how complex things can get - and ALSO....
"If you fail to notify us about your intention to carry out one of the listed operations for your SSSI, or of damaging or destroying any of the features of special interest, you may be fined up to £20,000 in the Magistrate’s Court, or an unlimited amount in the Crown Court. The courts can also order you to restore the site at your own expense." - laws on SSSIs

Sorry this isn't much help. To get a better explanation you would be better contacting Natural Resources Wales... however, good luck as it took me 5 months to get a licence to collect undersized shellfish for research!!!SadSadShockedShockedShockedShocked


No wonder nothing is ever achieved in this county.

Too many people employed to stop things happening vs people that makes things happen.


Well, I'm not sure what they're like now, but certainly when the FC, EA and CCW amalgamated into NRW, they were a crowd of useless twats and nobody wants to do anything, sign anything, process anything without going through a million channels for fear of getting in trouble. It's all bureaucracy over there and from what I hear from a few people who worked there and left, there is a huge amount of paperwork and dillydallying surrounding absolutely everything and so it takes forever to actually get anything done or achieved! Cursing CursingCursingCursingCursing

--

"Who dares nothing, need hope for nothing." - Johann Friedrich Von Schiller
IP: 147.143.12.184
royfellows

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 31/10/2016 09:55:11
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NouveauRiche wrote:

RAMPAGE wrote:

NouveauRiche wrote:

Hey. So from what I know, one thing is the area is within the national park and therefore falls under any environmental legislation put forward by the Snowdonia National Park authority and NRW. The area is a CROW access area and therefore falls under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 which has quite a number of enforced restrictions for your access - you can find more out here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-access-land-management-rights-and-responsibilities


Additionally, obviously the Afon Mawddach catchment area was severely damaged by the metal mining in the area, and I would imagine that the river bed itself is still quite polluted and any significant disturbance to the river bed would greatly increase the re-release of pollutants from the bed to downstream areas/resuspension in the water column. The area has now recovered greatly since the environment agency set out certain mine waste regulations. Additionally, the catchment area of the Afon Mawddach falls within two Special Conservation Areas, three Sites of Special Scientific Interest and one Natural Nature Reserve. The Salmon and Freshwaters Fisheries act 1975 also makes it illegal to disturb any spawning beds etc. There is also legislation protecting sea lampreys further down in the Mawddach estuary...

Just from all of that, you can see how complex things can get - and ALSO....
"If you fail to notify us about your intention to carry out one of the listed operations for your SSSI, or of damaging or destroying any of the features of special interest, you may be fined up to £20,000 in the Magistrate’s Court, or an unlimited amount in the Crown Court. The courts can also order you to restore the site at your own expense." - laws on SSSIs

Sorry this isn't much help. To get a better explanation you would be better contacting Natural Resources Wales... however, good luck as it took me 5 months to get a licence to collect undersized shellfish for research!!!SadSadShockedShockedShockedShocked


No wonder nothing is ever achieved in this county.

Too many people employed to stop things happening vs people that makes things happen.


Well, I'm not sure what they're like now, but certainly when the FC, EA and CCW amalgamated into NRW, they were a crowd of useless twats and nobody wants to do anything, sign anything, process anything without going through a million channels for fear of getting in trouble. It's all bureaucracy over there and from what I hear from a few people who worked there and left, there is a huge amount of paperwork and dillydallying surrounding absolutely everything and so it takes forever to actually get anything done or achieved! Cursing CursingCursingCursingCursing


With respect, we at CMT get on with them just fine. This may relate to the person we deal with who is genuinely very interested in her work and is a pleasure to deal with.

--

"How people get on with these things as a mobile device I cannot begin to imagine, but it certainly explains a lot about peoples behaviour."
IP: 88.108.26.37
John Mason

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 01/11/2016 06:45:53
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I'm still waiting for the next big flash-flood! IP: 81.151.175.110
derrickhand

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 01/11/2016 07:18:45
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It's a principle of English law, and hence British law that any given thing is legal until proven otherwise. This doesn't mean that it can't be proven to be illegal if it becomes an issue.

Seriously, does anyone have any genuine information, showing any worthwhile amount of gold anywhere in the UK?

AFAIK this chap was trying to stage small scale commercial, or at least commercial in intent, operations without the consent or agreement of interested parties, in a location with a history of pollution issues. The law blocked him, and he has failed to make a subsequent case.

It isn't the law that stops there being a gold rush in Wales, it's the lack of actual gold..



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John Mason

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 01/11/2016 09:53:29
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As far as I was aware the guy in question was not commercial as such.

As to gold in the UK, some large and accessible deposits have already been mostly removed (Dolaucothi perhaps the biggest, followed by Clogau and Gwynfynydd). Less accessible sections remain in all, but that access comes at a heightened cost. Others largely remain to be removed (e.g. Cononish) and still others remain to be discovered (e.g. the source of the rich Ochils alluvial gold). There is also the question of the source of the large quantity of alluvial gold historically and still obtained from the Leadhills district. Plenty out there, in other words.
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legendrider

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Panning for Gold illegal?
Posted: 01/11/2016 14:01:36
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derrickhand wrote:

Seriously, does anyone have any genuine information, showing any worthwhile amount of gold anywhere in the UK?


Yes, thaars Gold, but not in tham thar hills!

Globally it is estimated that annually, over 6 million ounces of gold finds its way into landfill (presumably forever) in the form of scrap electronics and so forth.

Ink cartridges are a common source of Urban-mined gold, to name but one!

Rather than dodging weather, midges and buckshot, there is merit in looking for gold that has already been found!

MARK





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festina lente IP: 109.148.66.43
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