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Author Vandalism in Browns Folly
JohnnearCfon

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 13:29:53
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dave_the_cave wrote:



The new poster sounds familiar and is probably (jonathon/wildside/jason) who plagues ukcaving and is one of those suspected of this systematic destruction.




So, as I commented before, has he (or they) got their own agenda and if it is similar to what Dave the Cave has suggested this surely falls foul of one of the basic "rules" of Adit Now, and as such should he (they/it) be banned?

Ban MeBan Me
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Blober

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 13:46:36
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I've been watching this thread unfold since it began.

Seems like to me the only real solution is to completely block the mine up (allow some space for the bats)

Sounds like there are so many different agendas and problems it could be the best solution to just leave it for a few years, and reopen it further down the line when people have calmed down and just have one or two very secure entrances in.

I hate the thought of sealing somewhere up but all these conflicting agendas and vandalism are going to completely ruin somewhere that seems a very interesting place.

Of course, i've never been so I don't know much about the place or the underground politics of the area.

Just my 2 pence.

--

FILTH
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dave_the_cave

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 14:45:23
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royfellows wrote:

dave_the_cave wrote:

royfellows wrote:

The over sanitisation is what attracts the vandalism, the vandalism then attracts the over sanitisation. Each is feeding on the other.


- the systematic destruction of the quarries historic artefacts has no justification



Does what I have said imply a justification?


I am totally puzzled by your even handed-ness

You explain the vandalism by apportioning blame to those repairing it.

Throughout all these attacks that you fail to condemn there has been continuous access to the quarry through Muddy hole

One side breaks the law - criminal damage to peoples cars, houses, internet harrasment, online bullying,

The attacks on the AWT entrances and bars are criminal damage.

The break in attempts to Restore are the work of a criminal gang that will result in the closure of the quarry unless
they are stopped.

Parties and fireworks underground threaten the bat population

I fail to see why you are even handed?

What have they got on you?





--

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royfellows

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 17:06:19
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dave_the_cave wrote:



What have they got on you?


There is a saying about daft questions but I have avoided the temptation.

It was me who started the thread, have you actually read it all from the beginning? (sensible question)

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Graigfawr

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 18:31:15
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Blober wrote:

I've been watching this thread unfold since it began.

Seems like to me the only real solution is to completely block the mine up (allow some space for the bats)

Sounds like there are so many different agendas and problems it could be the best solution to just leave it for a few years, and reopen it further down the line when people have calmed down and just have one or two very secure entrances in.

I hate the thought of sealing somewhere up but all these conflicting agendas and vandalism are going to completely ruin somewhere that seems a very interesting place.

Of course, i've never been so I don't know much about the place or the underground politics of the area.

Just my 2 pence.


Some or many of the US caving community have either tacitly or possibly more formally accepted that some large, dry, easy-access caves, and especially their entrance areas, are now so impacted by graffiti, rubbish, party debris, etc, that they are conceived as 'sacrificial' areas, largely abandoned to the vandals, in the hope that this reduces the liklihood of the vandals seeking out other cave locations. Is there possibly a risk that preventing access to what seems to be a well-known and extensively abused mine might risk this abuse occurring in other locations that are, so far, off the vandals' radar? There probably is no straightforward answer but this dismal possibility seems worth bearing in mind when considering the range of responses and options?
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royfellows

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 18:44:15
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I agree with this.

And if the yobs and ravers return to find their own mess untouched from last time it may well discourage them to the point were they loose interest, and then when everything has quietened down perhaps a bit of cleaning up a little bit at a time.

I struggle badly to see any other solution. I am concerned of a possible ladder of escalation, things need winding down not cranking up.

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crickleymal

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 18:47:03
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Graigfawr wrote:



Some or many of the US caving community have either tacitly or possibly more formally accepted that some large, dry, easy-access caves, and especially their entrance areas, are now so impacted by graffiti, rubbish, party debris, etc, that they are conceived as 'sacrificial' areas, largely abandoned to the vandals, in the hope that this reduces the liklihood of the vandals seeking out other cave locations. Is there possibly a risk that preventing access to what seems to be a well-known and extensively abused mine might risk this abuse occurring in other locations that are, so far, off the vandals' radar? There probably is no straightforward answer but this dismal possibility seems worth bearing in mind when considering the range of responses and options?


I did suggest that earlier in the thread (or in another one). There is a stone mine near me where that seems to be the case.
Of course it's nowhere near as big as Browns
IP: 86.175.236.143 Edited: 25/01/2016 18:48:45 by crickleymal
megalith42

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 19:30:29
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OK, it seems I have ruffled a few feathers here. I’m sorry that my genuine concern has been interpreted as aggression; this was not my intention. To JohnnearCfon, please accept my apologies for straying over the boundaries here. It was really not my intention to initiate a quarrel at a time when it is so important that we are all batting on the same side. And to Dave_the_Cave, I am not the person who plagues UK caving that you accuse me of being.
As I have already said, this wonderful place has received a battering over the last few months. The vandalism has been caused by those who regard the place as unimportant. Ravers who leave litter, paint the walls and use the mine as a toilet, are doing irreparable damage to an important piece of industrial archaeology. Others have poured unidentifiable, but unpleasant liquids into the stone troughs, and used fireworks.
In addition to this, the cleanup campaign, which started with honourable intentions, is now becoming detrimental to many areas which, up to now, have not been vandalised. This is a mine (or more correctly an underground quarry) and not a landscape garden.
No, I must emphasize again, my intention here is not to stir up a mud pot. I imagine that all the members of this group follow the general protocol of taking nothing but photographs and leaving nothing but footprints; I do not want to pick an argument with any of you!
I think however, that if no action is taken, the place is going to be smashed beyond reclamation, and a group such as this is in a uniquely powerful position to do something about it before it’s too late. Sensible discussion could do so much to secure the future of the mine. We all may have slightly differing viewpoints and agendas, but I’m sure we will all agree that this place is too valuable to lose.
I would be delighted if all those who are concerned with this issue could meet up in the Swan sometime and discuss the matter in a friendly constructive way. Those who have taken issue with me on these pages would then understand that I am not an ogre looking for conflict, but an old geologist who has been brought to tears by the destruction of this place.
How about a Saturday evening sometime within the next month or so?
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ChrisJC

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 19:45:38
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Views on Browns Folly are so entrenched by a the two factions that I don't think anything can be done in the short term.

I would just let it run it's course - eventually something will give, and then a new order can be established.

Chris.
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rufenig

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 20:29:28
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Sounds from this post that the main entrance has been broken open again.
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=19727.msg253385;topicseen#new Sad
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dave_the_cave

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 25/01/2016 23:12:39
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megalith42 wrote:


but an old geologist who has been brought to tears by the destruction of this place.


I am sad to hear so much poison from you.

Our group has several geologists and industrial archaelogists, we have followed up the work of Bristol university caving club (ubss) and explored the gull features of the quarry. We got some of their geologist rather excited when we mentioned the discovery of flints in the landslip rifts (gulls) - in fact to them the flint was more valueable than gold.

If you want to talk come underground with us to Box, but really you are so mis-informed to be frightenly dangerous.

Talk does not stop criminal actions - evidence is needed to bring those responsible to court. They hide on secret facebook groups and forums. They are bullies who harrass an individual online - really it does you no credit to spout their disinformation.

This quarry has lots of visitors who enjoy the quarry and have no navigational problems. The greatest threat to the bats is from the parties and fireworks. The quarry cannot be allowed to be used as a base for breaking into restore. This will stop access for everyone. Historic artefacts in the quarry are being deliberately targeted by people who know better (some are collectors) and who know the quarry very well. Criminal attacks are made on the AWT entrances and bars. Evidence is needed to identify the criminals they can be stopped. At the heart is one small sick group who have allied themselves with some urbexers who want to break into restore.









--

Caver turned quarry explorer
IP: 82.37.235.182 Edited: 25/01/2016 23:29:40 by dave_the_cave
megalith42

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 26/01/2016 00:09:57
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Your post has confused me. The implication that my concern for the safety of this wonderful place is somehow poisonous, has left me dumbfounded and your allegation that I am misinformed to a “frightenly” dangerous level is really rather insulting.
I can tell however from the rest of your post that you actually share my concerns. Can we not work together on this, instead of squabbling and work towards a sensible solution.
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megalith42

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 26/01/2016 00:11:06
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Your post has confused me. The implication that my concern for the safety of this wonderful place is somehow poisonous, has left me dumbfounded and your allegation that I am misinformed to a “frightenly” dangerous level is really rather insulting.
I can tell however from the rest of your post that you actually share my concerns. Can we not work together on this, instead of squabbling and work towards a sensible solution.
IP: 146.200.232.181
BertyBasset

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 26/01/2016 00:50:07
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Wowzah... This is like UKCaving after all....... IP: 86.149.2.187
royfellows

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 26/01/2016 09:36:08
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dave_the_cave wrote:



Our group has several geologists ....................



Would you be so kind as identify your "group" please, this is going to cause confusion.

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royfellows

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 26/01/2016 11:15:55
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On the subject of the thread:

I believe that I first visited in the late 1980s. In those days the entrance we now call "Shakespears" was wide open, but had evidence of a gate once being fitted.

Inside, the mine was in quite good order, the only signs of vandalism being carbide graffiti in the stables, nothing else I can remember, and this regardless of the fact that everyone was going in. We (a lady friend and myself) would even meet local people walking their dogs with torches.

One of our favourite spots was "The Fish Fountain", a carved fishes head through which the water would flow into the calcited watering troughs. In the early 1990s this was wantonly destroyed, my anger was intense. I have since become enlightened to realise the futility of anger and that it is our own enemy within, but that is beside the point.

Shortly afterwards I remember pencil drawings appearing in a chamber just off Front Passage, and also some evidence of some kind of rituals being performed there. Then later a lot of obscene drawings appearing at Clapham Junction done in white paint. I pondered the mentality of those who would take paint pots that far in just to damage walls. That was the start of the place going downhill.

The last time I was in there was about 3 years ago and was amazed to find the place spotless. I remember wandering along with a feeling of delight at the cleanliness of the place, but noticed that the floor had actually been swept which I thought was a bit over the top, but infinitely preferable to the mess that the place was becoming.

Since then my impression has been solely based on what people have communicated to me and what I have seen on the web. I cant see it ending well.

If I do get to go down this year, I shall probably take my own advice and keep clear of BF and spend a happy day in Box.

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dave_the_cave

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Vandalism in Browns Folly
Posted: 27/01/2016 20:27:29
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megalith42 wrote:

Your post has confused me. The implication that my concern for the safety of this wonderful place is somehow poisonous, has left me dumbfounded and your allegation that I am misinformed to a “frightenly” dangerous level is really rather insulting.
I can tell however from the rest of your post that you actually share my concerns. Can we not work together on this, instead of squabbling and work towards a sensible solution.


pm sent

--

Caver turned quarry explorer
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