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Author Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
royfellows

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Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 16:19:06
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Morlock wrote:

Is there any chance that the partially built rear wall is below the beam, if so, can it be extended upwards?



I wonder if this was original intented but dropped as unnecessary?
It would certainly be feasible to do this, get sand and cement into there and maybe find some slab already in and not doing anything. You'll still need to get ladder in.
Safest place in there as daft as it sounds is probably behind the wall at the back

--

Better a NAMHO delegate than an organiser, that way you just get the disappointments not the aggro. LOL
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Morlock

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 16:19:55
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Must agree the problems and risks involved seem insurmountable as it could all go pear shaped when attempting to jack back up, even if the logistics issues could be resolved. IP: 82.31.17.181
Willy Eckerslyke

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 16:19:56
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lozz wrote:

As has been said weight relief by taking the weight of the cage and anything else below would be a good start.

Would there be any scope in using ratchet straps for that? They'd look awful, but would be easy to carry in, if there's anything to fix them to.
IP: 147.143.162.104
christwigg

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 16:25:05
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royfellows wrote:



It would certainly be feasible to do this, get sand and cement into there


I struggle to carry a bag of full bag of cement from my car to my shed, never mind carry it up to Sir Francis then a mile along a flooded level.
IP: 145.8.104.65
wookey

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 16:33:06
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Hi chaps,

What about putting a number of acro props between the top of the wall and the beam? bit of a temporary fix maybe and not exactly ideal but you could use more than one to spread the load across the beam and you wouldnt have to tighten them very hard against it, i shouldnt imagine you want to be moving it about too much.

Dan
IP: 80.254.158.76
christwigg

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 16:37:47
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Rather than speculating endlessly, perhaps we should let 'sir francis lilo' take back these suggestions to the local group who intend to do something about it.

Then if they need more bodies to actually get things to the location they can come back and ask for assistance ?

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royfellows

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 16:42:19
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wookey wrote:

Hi chaps,

What about putting a number of acro props between the top of the wall and the beam? bit of a temporary fix maybe and not exactly ideal but you could use more than one to spread the load across the beam and you wouldnt have to tighten them very hard against it, i shouldnt imagine you want to be moving it about too much.

Dan


Would you want to be the one to start cranking it up?

I still think the wall is the business, floating bags of sand and cement up the level in dingies would be no sweat, and what about getting permission off the landowner for vehicle access, the portal was restored and I am sure the materials were not carried up on peoples backs.

--

Better a NAMHO delegate than an organiser, that way you just get the disappointments not the aggro. LOL
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lozz

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 16:54:51
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Assuming that the back beam has sagged because of rot then the front beam probably won't be far behind it, the whole lot will need doing properly for a long term solution.
It's difficult to be exact from the photo's but maybe one of the safer solutions to effect repairs would be to drop the cage if possible on a seperate chain or cable to get all that out of the way, then deck out the shaft, extending the decking out to the floor in front of it then wheel in a couple of scaffold towers for support, doing approx weight calculations first.

Lozz.
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darkmole

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 16:59:21
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While a bit drastic it might be worth cutting the cable on the
winder drum.If the pulleys dropped the cable might snap the
winder drum destroying that as well as the cage.
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Yorkshireman

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 17:51:34
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Sorry if this all seems all too obvious to those of you who know much more about it than I do.

Taking a closer look at the beam and trying to get it into a less distorted view
http://www.aditnow.co.uk/photo/Personal-Album-8946-Image-88796/
(Thanks to AdM Michael for posting the original shot)
it looks as if it's overloaded at two separate points at the end of the two beams in the blue oval. The sag/shift is also seen in the floorboards above the beams.

The chain at the left is no longer tensioned, so whatever is holding it must have dropped quite a bit (I estimate 10 to 15 cm). The cables are still taut, so the central part seems to have dropped considerably less than the left-hand side, despite the "bend" in the beam.

The suggestion of taking the strain off the cables may therefore have quite the opposite effect on the whole construction, as, to me, if I interpreted correctly that the pulleys are closer to the "front beam", these appear to be holding everything together like guy lines by pulling on the front, undamaged beam and relieving the load on the rear, damaged beam.

It's difficult to say from the photo whether the shift in the floorboards is an effect of sagging or a true shift parallel to the front-to-back beams. But if so, there's also a problem with the second beam from the left having shifted both horizontally and vertically.

The left-hand end of the cross beam (damaged) also appears to be in danger of slipping out of the hole it's anchored in and is most heavily stressed at the points indicated by the yellow lines.
The green lines indicate what may be surface damage in the form of cracks or splintering.

Pity we don't have two photos shot with the same focal length from exactly the same position from different years, I could then try subtracting one from the other to display the shifts in the whole construction.

Cheers
D.

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wookey

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 18:58:07
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royfellows wrote:

wookey wrote:

Hi chaps,

What about putting a number of acro props between the top of the wall and the beam? bit of a temporary fix maybe and not exactly ideal but you could use more than one to spread the load across the beam and you wouldnt have to tighten them very hard against it, i shouldnt imagine you want to be moving it about too much.

Dan


Would you want to be the one to start cranking it up?




Hi Roy,

I did give that some thought, but my reasoning is that you wont need to tighten them up very much at all, as long as they are snug enough not to fall over any future downwards movement should be arrested. Also if maybe you could erect two or three simultaneously then the required support is already there should the beam start to give way?

maybe you could even do it in sections and rebuild the wall at the same time? i know i would feel happier working under somthing like that with some temporary support in place.

i do think the poster who mentions the front beam has a point though, i presume it is in a similar state.

Regards

Dan
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royfellows

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 22:37:41
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wookey wrote:



i do think the poster who mentions the front beam has a point though, i presume it is in a similar state.

Dan


Actually I doubt it.
The front beam must be taking most of the load as pointed out by Mr Yorkshireman, its probably very sound.

Its all to do with air currents, the timber at the back is probably subject to an updraft from the shaft, while the front one is not. This is actually a familiar situation to me.

--

Better a NAMHO delegate than an organiser, that way you just get the disappointments not the aggro. LOL
IP: 88.105.209.57
christwigg

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 22:42:52
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royfellows wrote:


Its all to do with air currents, the timber at the back is probably subject to an updraft from the shaft, while the front one is not.


Updraft ?
Its full to the brim with water isn't it ?

Never recall there being airflow in there at all, tends to mist up after a few photos and a couple of years back some talked about bad air.

IP: 81.103.213.148 Edited: 19/08/2013 22:43:11 by christwigg
Ty Gwyn

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 23:02:48
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If there`s no access from above,how did they lift the drum up there in the first place? IP: 81.154.49.180
christwigg

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 23:27:00
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This is 100% speculation, but I think there must have been a way to change the wheels, because theres a spare set in an alcove a short distance past the engine chamber (just dug out poor photo I had never uploaded previously)



Looking at the platform the planks on the right of this shot running back to front could perhaps be moved out of the way.



Maybe then theres enough clearance on that side to get the wheels over the platform ?

IP: 81.103.213.148 Edited: 19/08/2013 23:29:26 by christwigg
Yorkshireman

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/08/2013 08:40:11
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I can't imagine that it was all installed without maintenance access, so I very much suspect that the planks laid over the beams - as seen in the pics - are a working platform. Why else the planking? Is the hole between the wheels an access hatch or just where the boards have rotted away?

Is there a chamber above the construction, or just clearance for changing the wheels if need be?

The spare wheels indicate that someone thought it might be necessary at some time, so anyone with any sense would have ensured that access wasn't all that difficult.

Lugging that kind of weight in cast-iron certainly wouldn't be easy, so the location of the spares must have been very close to where they would be needed - a clue to whether they were hoisted up to the platform or installed from above, perhaps?

D.

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Yorkshireman

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/08/2013 09:08:29
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The cross-sections of the engine house in this PDF show that there is quite a bit of space in the roof above the pulleys.

http://www.pdmhs.com/PDFs/ScannedBulletinArticles/Bulletin%2015-4&5%20-%20Sir%20Francis%20Level%20-%20Driven%20by%20Water.pdf
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royfellows

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/08/2013 09:18:57
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christwigg wrote:

royfellows wrote:


Its all to do with air currents, the timber at the back is probably subject to an updraft from the shaft, while the front one is not.


Updraft ?
Its full to the brim with water isn't it ?



Of course it is, but the engine chamber is 'upstairs', hence the air flow along the adit will possibly rise into the engine chamber. Depends on the air temperature differential.

I have seen a lot of this, in a shaft for instance, one timber will go rotten, while one a few feet away remains sound. I have this issue at Talybont.

--

Better a NAMHO delegate than an organiser, that way you just get the disappointments not the aggro. LOL
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RJV

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/08/2013 09:34:28
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If you can get above it then possibly the safest and easiest method would be a cats cradle type affair much like the Old Engine shaft at Coniston as it could largely be done without going below the headframe. One problem is however that the quality of the rock in Swaledale is often little better than poor so would bolts hold? Probably if its just to ease some of the strain...

All just idle speculation anyway, there seems to be some locals actually looking at it and doubtless they know what they are about.
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wookey

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/08/2013 12:46:11
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Well good luck to the chaps on the ground whatever method they choose, it looks like a fantastic example of mine engineering and i hope it can be saved. Would love to visit, Nuisence i'm so far away!


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