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Author Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
davetidza

Joined: 21/02/2010

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/11/2012 13:20:43
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Might I suggest (from the safety of Derbyshire) that the first person to go and see is Robert White, the Yorkshire Dales National Park Authority Archaeologist. He is a keen supporter of the conservation of mining remaining in the Park, and will be able to advise on the legal situation with regards to the scheduling of the site. As far as I can see from the HER entry

http://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=1015823&resourceID=5

the surface area is scheduled whilst the underground is not. This is usual - English Heritage are now starting to attempt to schedule underground remains, but have never done this in the past.

Before you get in touch with Robert, make sure you have a coherent dossier of information, photographs and drawings etc. He's a professional and will appreciate being dealt with in a professional manner.
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Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/11/2012 14:19:10
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The whole of Reigate Castle was scheduled many years ago. As there are underground features directly beneath the scheduled area, we asked English Heritage to advise on this, and the answer we received was that the features directly below the scheduled area were protected by default. As a result, we needed to obtain consent to clear away broken glass from one area to allow public access, and then only after a trial excavation had been done (by us) to demonstrate that nothing of archaeological value would be disturbed by our work. Perhaps advice varies according to region, or even according to which department you ask?

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pwhole

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/11/2012 14:22:27
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The first underground portion of Odin Mine falls within the EH scheduling zone, and other mines in the Castleton area are also technically scheduled underground also; and there is probably a change in policy due for sites not normally accessible to the public, such as shipwrecks, etc. It's quite possible that a heritage-rich site such as this could have future protection and funding allocated, especially if responsible interest groups can contribute to the implementation and onward management of a site.

Obviously scheduling underground sites can bring problems too, namely getting permission to do work that may otherwise have just 'been done' in the past with just a passing mention to the authorities. Moose's James Hall Over Engine/Leviathan project, for example, entailed a mammoth digging/construction job that would probably require a lot of red tape to pass if it were attempted today, even with the proven heritage value of the project outcomes.
IP: 81.174.241.13 Edited: 20/11/2012 14:23:22 by pwhole
PeteJ

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/11/2012 14:25:03
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My experience in the NW Region is similar to yours at Reigate. However, provided you obtain SMC and do the archaeological survey, consent has always been forthcoming from EH. The consent forms are simple to complete on-line and there are people in this mine-exploring world who have the qualifications to supervise the archaeological work. So far is easy. the difficult part will be to find the team to carry in the materials and do the graft. IP: 86.22.26.160
christwigg

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/11/2012 14:53:52
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The scheduled area is about a mile from the location of the engine room, which probably opens several cans of worms.

My worry is whether you can find the local group who are willing to jump through all the official hoops to obtain the various permissions and funding.

I know there are people very active in Swaledale, but you'll not easily find any clubs or societies to join.

(note, I have no contacts within them)
IP: 145.8.104.65 Edited: 20/11/2012 14:56:35 by christwigg
PeteJ

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/11/2012 15:17:37
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The engine room is within a Scheduled Ancient Monument. It is also part of a SSSI. However, provided that you seek the right permissions, these are not obstacles - indeed they can be routes to funding.

What is required is to get someone with practical mining engineering experience to apply their MK 1 eyeball to the engine room and give some ad-hoc advice. Then take that advice to the YDNP archaeologist and discuss....
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christwigg

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/11/2012 15:37:57
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But isn't the engine room under a different SAM ?
(hence my comment about cans of worms)

Theres been lots of very good advice given, i'm just saying that I don't think any of the more senior members of the local groups who might have experience of pull this off are going to read this forum.

A couple of names have been previously mentioned in the thread, but its up to them whether they want to persue it.
IP: 145.8.104.65 Edited: 20/11/2012 15:44:13 by christwigg
PeteJ

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/11/2012 15:41:00
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The level entrance is within a SAM, and the engine room is within another SAM. This is not a problem, provided you get the relevant consents. I think that it would be worth approaching one of the established societies to see if they will lead the project. NMRS? IP: 86.22.26.160
Bill L

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Location: Pendeen,Cornwall

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 20/11/2012 16:00:19
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We've always found EH helpful & understanding over restoration projects but a group or organisation is certainly needed to take it forward - and to try to pull in funding. We got some financial support for the restoration of a w/wheel & stamps from the PRISM fund [Preservation of Industrial & Scientific Material] - well worth a Google. IP: 93.97.208.124
royfellows

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 16/08/2013 19:56:20
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Here is a photo I took in about 1988, just look at the timberwork at the back compared to today. I am wondering if its due to rot or some rockfall.



(click image to open full size image in new window)

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Better a NAMHO delegate than an organiser, that way you just get the disappointments not the aggro. LOL
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RJV

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 16/08/2013 20:07:55
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sir francis lilo on 16 August 2013 wrote:

12 of our group went into sir francis last night down the 20ft climb and through the shallow water(not)! to assess the damage,jesus its dangerous,only solution we could possibly think of would be to tempory acro prop to support the beam but its getting across the 120ft water filled shaft to do it,we have 2 or 3 willing psychos in our group so good luck to them,hardest thing will be to get 2 acros down there! will keep you posted in coming weeks Confused


royfellows wrote:

Can we merge this posting into the main thread please admins?


Not directly through the forum software but will this do you?
IP: 82.19.131.200 Edited: 16/08/2013 20:09:30 by RJV
sir francis lilo

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 16/08/2013 20:16:10
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yes of course although I wouldn't have a clue how to do that!

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sirfrancislilo its to wet to work lets go digging IP: 78.146.169.10
royfellows

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 16/08/2013 20:40:51
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Thanks, if you could delete the other thread to keep things on track better still.

Anyway, my old picture wasn't bad for ASA 400 print film, the timber as it was can be clearly seen. I am wondering if it is actually rot that has done it, the stuff at the back in the old shot wasn't carrying any load, yet its all down.
I think the ideal solution would be to first get the weight off the shearwheels and then bolt in an RSJ across everthing. Its not impossible as an RSJ was dragged over the fells from Greeside to Glencoyndale in the 1990s, I know for sure as I was one of crowd that did it.
Maybe a couple of ladders and raise one side at a time on the rungs. The span would have to be measured and a matching girder experimented with for handling technique before trying anything for real.


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Better a NAMHO delegate than an organiser, that way you just get the disappointments not the aggro. LOL
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Edd

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 17/08/2013 17:18:04
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Done Smile

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christwigg

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 17/08/2013 17:24:56
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Heres an April 2013 shot of the beam.



(click image to open full size image in new window)

IP: 81.103.213.148 Edited: 17/08/2013 17:25:48 by christwigg
fjällvandring

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 00:13:22
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christwigg wrote:

Heres an April 2013 shot of the beam.



(click image to open full size image in new window)



Still safe to get in here? October I hope

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christwigg

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 10:25:12
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Should be if sir francis lilo was in there last week.

1 mile in waist deep chilly water, wetsuit recommended
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SimonRL

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 10:32:08
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christwigg wrote:

Should be if sir francis lilo was in there last week.

1 mile in waist deep chilly water, wetsuit recommended


Often neck deep IIRC?
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christwigg

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 10:43:55
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Depends how tall you are and how much its been raining.

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AdM Michael

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Big Trouble Brewing at Sir Francis ?
Posted: 19/08/2013 12:30:13
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slightly better visible detail of the beam:
24/07/2013


(click image to open full size image in new window)

I don't think acro props are the right choice with the height from the engine room floor to the beam. They'll just bend under the load and you're looking at agreat big hole below you where you need to place them.

How about using a scaffolding tower to support the beam instead?
The parts would be easy enough to transport although it'll be a lot more parts than just 2 props. It could be removed if necessary and would require minimum changes to other structures if any at all.
But it'll certainly spoil the view for future photos.


(click image to open full size image in new window)
These drawings are from a handbook of the Federal Agency for Technical Relief (THW) in Germany. The design is suitable for max. 9 m height with the base spanning 3 m. The load is 25 kN per standard. Estimated building time 60 minutes (without transport).
IP: 193.238.8.86 Edited: 19/08/2013 13:03:01 by AdM Michael
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