Mine exploration, photographs and mining history for mine explorers, industrial archaeologists, researchers and historians Mine explorer and mining history videos on YouTube Connect with other mine explorers on Facebook
Tip: do not include 'mine' or 'quarry', search by name e.g. 'cwmorthin', use 'Sounds like search' if unsure of spelling

Advanced Search
'Sounds like search'
Quick a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
Tip: narrow down your search by typing more than one word and selecting 'Search for all words' or 'Exact search'

Search for any word
Search for all words
Exact search
Tip: narrow down your search by typing more than one word and selecting 'Search for all words' or 'Exact search'

Search for any word
Search for all words
Exact search

Mine Exploration Forum

Jump to page << < 1 2 > >>
Author NiFe cells
exspelio

Joined: 02/05/2012
Location: peak district

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 28/07/2013 15:22:04
Reply |  Quote
Doing some research into NiFe cells I came across this, 'thought I might share, fascinating reading, especially the link to Edisons maintenance guide book;

http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/

--

Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.
IP: 81.153.179.46
Morlock

Avatar of Morlock

Joined: 31/07/2008

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 28/07/2013 16:55:43
Reply |  Quote
Wonderful bits of kit, used Edison Model 'L' and K1 PMX for many years.
One could even change plates in the rubber potted 'L' but NIFE had much simpler valve arrangement.
Electrolyte refill used to be less than a quid from CS.



(click image to open full size image in new window)

Now in a sorry state due to lengthy storage. Sad

IP: 81.107.142.230
exspelio

Joined: 02/05/2012
Location: peak district

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 28/07/2013 17:26:16
Reply |  Quote
Read the instructions from Edison, it would be interesting to see if they can be reclaimed, the rubber in mine perished but I reckon the stainless(?) cased ones I have might be worth a play with.
There is a link in the article about someone re-vitalising some 85year old ones!

--

Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.
IP: 81.153.179.46
Morlock

Avatar of Morlock

Joined: 31/07/2008

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 28/07/2013 18:30:28
Reply |  Quote
Have checked old kit cupboard and it appears I have another K1 PMX (minus cells) so wading through technical stuff in the links at the moment.
Only originally stopped using them as Oldham batteries were free with the added benefit of less complex charging, also no degassing requirement prior to use.

Edit: Managed to find the 1956 K1 PMX manual. Smile



(click image to open full size image in new window)

IP: 86.29.193.62 Edited: 28/07/2013 18:47:34 by Morlock
inbye

Avatar of inbye

Joined: 06/07/2008
Location: Huddersfield

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 28/07/2013 19:47:54
Reply |  Quote
That's a coincidence. I was looking thro' some adverts in the 1950 edition of Colliery Year Book & found this from CEAG, claiming to have cracked the problem of creep in their "Superlite" cells.




(click image to open full size image in new window)

I did try to revive some Ni-cad cells, back in the late 70's. I had some limited success but unearthing the info wasn't easy. I remember getting some potassium hydroxide (?) from the chemist, along with a specialist hydrometer. I did manage to get the lamps to burn again, but no more than a couple of hours.

--

Regards, John... 'Folk from Huddersfield think Sex is what coal gets delivered in...'
IP: 86.27.17.198
Morlock

Avatar of Morlock

Joined: 31/07/2008

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 29/07/2013 01:45:04
Reply |  Quote
Exspelio's links seem to indicate Lithium Hydroxide is a proportion of the electrolyte. IP: 86.23.123.191 Edited: 29/07/2013 01:46:21 by Morlock
exspelio

Joined: 02/05/2012
Location: peak district

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 29/07/2013 11:16:09
Reply |  Quote
Looking at the equations, it seems its only the OH ion doing the work, I wonder if NaOH (caustic soda) would work??

--

Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.
IP: 81.153.179.46
Morlock

Avatar of Morlock

Joined: 31/07/2008

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 29/07/2013 13:02:30
Reply |  Quote
exspelio wrote:

I wonder if NaOH (caustic soda) would work??


It seemed to work OK when tried in a beat up CEAG lamp many moons ago but how long the lamp lasted after our experiment is unknown. Big Grin

It appears from reading the voluminous linked info that the Lithium Hydroxide
function is to protect one of the cell plates from corrosion?
IP: 86.23.118.109
John Lawson

Joined: 09/12/2010
Location: Castle Douglas Dumfries & Galloway

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 29/07/2013 19:04:15
Reply |  Quote
Basic problem with NiFe cells was their tendency to leak!
As your contributors have pointed out, this electrolyte leakage was high in caustic potash/ lithium hydroxide.[I believe it was about 15 % LiOH], when this comes in contact with the skin severe burns result which take months to heal.
As coal mines closed sealed Oldhams, arrived and since they did not leak, the days of the NiFe lamp and the equivalent NiCad lamp were numbered.
IP: 109.145.10.78
royfellows

Avatar of royfellows

Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 29/07/2013 19:11:07
Reply |  Quote
I was told an horrific story by Simon Hughes of someone who wore one of these cells inside his wet suit, and it leaked.
Your imagination will fill the gaps.

--

Better a NAMHO delegate than an organiser, that way you just get the disappointments not the aggro. LOL
IP: 2.98.235.242
Morlock

Avatar of Morlock

Joined: 31/07/2008

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 29/07/2013 20:22:32
Reply |  Quote
We used to have a routine to minimise the risk of leakage due to overpressure (Edison), charge the day before and leave open, close lid for transport and then vent again before going UG. Not ideal as contact with air degrades the electrolyte. Valve maintenance was also time consuming!


IP: 86.9.241.104
John Lawson

Joined: 09/12/2010
Location: Castle Douglas Dumfries & Galloway

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 30/07/2013 19:17:07
Reply |  Quote
I had forgotten that the valves also clogged up. Basically as has been pointed out, the alkali reacts with Carbon Dioxide, to form the less soluble respective carbonate.
This was the material, which caused the valves to seal, with obvious consequences.
I personally used to grease these rubber seals and try to get some into the valves to try and prevent this from happening.
I honestly think the only advantage of these lamps, was, if the electrolyte was removed, they could be stored for a long time without detiorating, unlike, of course, the lead acid Oldhams.

IP: 109.145.10.78
Graigfawr

Joined: 04/11/2009

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 31/07/2013 03:15:39
Reply |  Quote
royfellows wrote:

I was told an horrific story by Simon Hughes of someone who wore one of these cells inside his wet suit, and it leaked.
Your imagination will fill the gaps.


Simon took me on my very first Cwmystwyth trip in 1981. He lent me a Nife cell with a late 1940s date stamped on it - it was still going strong after over 30 years. Part way through the trip he told me the story Roy related ... with the inevitable result that I spent the remainder of the trip worrying about the Nife cell I was wearing.

In the mid 1980s I used ex-military Nife cells slotted into old Oldham battery casings. The light they gave was indifferent even by the standards of that time but they were electrically robust and could sit around discharged without the deterioration that rapidly afflicted discharged Oldhams.
IP: 65.128.231.214
royfellows

Avatar of royfellows

Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 31/07/2013 08:25:24
Reply |  Quote
I am wondering if this will eventually go off thread with stories of lead acid Oldhams coming into contact with nylon ropes?

Thank God for Lithium Ion

--

Better a NAMHO delegate than an organiser, that way you just get the disappointments not the aggro. LOL
IP: 2.98.235.242
exspelio

Joined: 02/05/2012
Location: peak district

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 31/07/2013 09:50:03
Reply |  Quote
royfellows wrote:

Thank God for Lithium Ion


Aah, you mean the ones that explode in flames given a slight overcharge! Shocked

--

Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.
IP: 81.153.182.117
RJV

Avatar of RJV

Joined: 16/03/2008
Location: Cleveland

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 31/07/2013 10:06:13
Reply |  Quote
exspelio wrote:

royfellows wrote:

Thank God for Lithium Ion


Aah, you mean the ones that explode in flames given a slight overcharge! Shocked


Given that they've been the standard helmet mounted battery for five years now, I wonder how many of us have had their heads explode as a consequence of this weakness? Smile
IP: 80.239.243.143
NewStuff

Avatar of NewStuff

Joined: 26/07/2010
Location: NE Wales

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 31/07/2013 10:55:48
Reply |  Quote
exspelio wrote:

royfellows wrote:

Thank God for Lithium Ion


Aah, you mean the ones that explode in flames given a slight overcharge! Shocked


Buy a decent charger. I have ~70AH in 18650's, and I have *never* had an issue.

--

In your mines, Taking your pictures... Searching for the ever elusive Underground Titty Bar.
IP: 86.146.159.67
Morlock

Avatar of Morlock

Joined: 31/07/2008

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 31/07/2013 11:57:40
Reply |  Quote
Just about on topic.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/15/us-airbus-battery-idUSBRE91E07V20130215
IP: 86.29.162.151
royfellows

Avatar of royfellows

Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 31/07/2013 12:15:03
Reply |  Quote
RJV wrote:

exspelio wrote:

royfellows wrote:

Thank God for Lithium Ion


Aah, you mean the ones that explode in flames given a slight overcharge! Shocked


Given that they've been the standard helmet mounted battery for five years now, I wonder how many of us have had their heads explode as a consequence of this weakness? Smile


Ha, common sense!
There is often confusion between the two distinctly different Lithium Ion Polymer (LiPo) and Lithium Ion (LiIon). There has been some serious incidents involving the former.

If I can find a spare cell that is not suitable for use for some reason I will deliberately overcharge it off my lab power supply to see what happens.
I am not talking about the 'rigged' displays seen on Youtube, I am talking about something sensible, like 5V for an overduration. I am fairly confident that I will live to post about it.

--

Better a NAMHO delegate than an organiser, that way you just get the disappointments not the aggro. LOL
IP: 2.98.235.242
NewStuff

Avatar of NewStuff

Joined: 26/07/2010
Location: NE Wales

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
NiFe cells
Posted: 31/07/2013 13:08:40
Reply |  Quote
Roy, I think You would be better trying over current. From what I can see, most charging incidents involve the application of too much current (typical 18650's recommend 0.5C, max of 1C). For instance, a weak cell in a pack, charged at full discharge capacity by the strong cells.

I have used LiPo's underground. Roy saw my 11.1v, 5AH setup, with an almost equivalent energy storage to an Oldham T6. Charged on the same charger as my 18650's (Imax B6 Clone), I've not had an incident.

I assume everyone here using these cells in series balances them regularly?

--

In your mines, Taking your pictures... Searching for the ever elusive Underground Titty Bar.
IP: 86.146.159.67
Jump to page << < 1 2 > >>
Safety LED Miners Caplamps Moore Books: Specialist Books I.A. Recordings: Mining and Industrial History DVDs Starless River - Caving Store Explore a Disused Welsh Slate Mine
Disclaimer: Mine exploring can be quite dangerous, but then again it can be alright, it all depends on the weather. Please read the proper disclaimer.
© 2005 to 2015 AditNow.co.uk
Top of Page