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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author Requirement for Mine Plans
JonK

Joined: 24/01/2008
Location: Yorkshire

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 12/02/2013 20:38:12
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Can anybody help by giving a definitive date when it became a legal requirement to keep plans of a slate mine and reference the act that required it? IP: 86.147.41.205
rikj

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Joined: 27/12/2008

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 12/02/2013 20:58:56
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A general overview here if it's of any use, though not slate specific:

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/nocomico/history.htm

not sure if it will be detailed enough if you need exact dates.




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'If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?'
IP: 109.151.77.47 Edited: 12/02/2013 21:00:59 by rikj
JonK

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 12/02/2013 21:12:15
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Thanks but this does not give the required detail and if this is all there is its still only required to keep plans of coal mines! IP: 86.147.41.205
LeeW

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Joined: 28/07/2007
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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 12/02/2013 21:29:16
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Requirement for mine plans comes under HSE regulations.
Try: THE MANAGEMENT AND ADMINISTRATION OF SAFETY AND HEALTH AT MINES REGULATIONS 1993.

Try having a sift through this: see reg 31 applies to all mines
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l44.pdf



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IP: 86.11.200.126
scooptram

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 12/02/2013 23:41:59
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are you talking abandoment plans or working plans?

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playing with tin stream works
IP: 86.178.22.77
derrickman

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 07:53:04
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I'd say that MASHAM 1993 referred to above, was the definitive answer.

Combe Down was required to keep Mine Plans, both working and abandonment, under MASHAM although it had no history of coal or fireclay working.

The practical effect of MASHAM 1993 was to clarify and standardise various bodies of legislation. this is an ongoing process; in the foreseeable future the Mine Surveyor qualification will be replaced, since the existing one is highly specific to coal mining as practiced about forty years ago, is seriously out-of-date to the extent that its function as a benchmark of professional ability has been lost and is almost impossible to achieve as the opportunities to complete the required practical experience are almost non-existent.

Thirty years ago, quite a few colleges produced Mine Surveyors on regular courses; now, occasional individividuals qualify at places like Boulby. The same applies to other mining trades.

The last NCB dinosaurs at the MQB need to retire and the industry can move on, such as it is.


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''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
IP: 93.88.81.158
sinker

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 08:05:06
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derrickman wrote:



I'd say that MASHAM 1993 referred to above, was the definitive answer.



Yes, however you can't be prosecuted under MASHAM, it is basically just a COP. So you can comply with it 100% and it will only ever mitigate your case, so don't relax!
If the wheel comes off, you will be prosecuted under some other more specific legislation, relevant to the nature of the incident. And if they can't find any piece of legislation that fits then you will just be hit with the HASAWA 1974 which can be made to fit almost anything.... Angry


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Crime doesn't stand a chance .... IP: 5.61.193.72
Grumpytramp

Joined: 25/07/2009
Location: The Big County, Scotland

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 08:25:53
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The comprehensive requirements for mine records, including those of Slate mines were spelt out in the 1954 Mines & Quarries Act, which placed a responability on mine managers to maintain plans of workings etc

See sections 17-21

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/2-3/70/part/II/crossheading/plans/enacted

Prior to that the Coal Mines Inspection Act 1850 required mine plans to be maintained in colleries (and stratified Ironstone, Shale and Fireclay). The Metalliferous Mines Regulation Act 1872 gathered up the remaining underground workings requiring owners of all mines except coal, to deposit plans of abandoned mines with the Home Secretary
IP: 217.33.241.212
Alasdair Neill

Joined: 10/12/2008

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 10:07:22
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Metalliferous mines were first covered by direct legislation in 1872-1873. The Festiniog slate quarry owners argued that they were not covered as they were underground quarries not mines, but a test case was brought against Cwmorthin in about 1875 which brought all slate mines under the Metalliferous Mines legislation. You would need to check the wording of this re the keeping of plans and depositing plans on abandonment. IP: 46.60.252.89
derrickman

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 10:09:08
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sinker wrote:

derrickman wrote:



I'd say that MASHAM 1993 referred to above, was the definitive answer.



Yes, however you can't be prosecuted under MASHAM, it is basically just a COP. So you can comply with it 100% and it will only ever mitigate your case, so don't relax!
If the wheel comes off, you will be prosecuted under some other more specific legislation, relevant to the nature of the incident. And if they can't find any piece of legislation that fits then you will just be hit with the HASAWA 1974 which can be made to fit almost anything.... Angry


That's quite true. The Combe Down Working Plans showed large areas as unsafe or inaccessible, for example, but they complied with MASHAM.


--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
IP: 93.88.81.158
ttxela

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 11:40:00
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I have no experience of MASHAM however I'd be suprised if it was treated as an ACOP, as I understand it they are regulations and therefore law?

ACOP's are drawn up by the HSE as guidance to complying with regulations, as such you don't have to follow them but you have to be prepared to jsutify why what you did instead was as good or better.

With regard to the requirement for plans I can't think of an alternative that would be as good or better in any case?
IP: 91.143.75.2
sinker

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 11:57:57
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ttxela wrote:

I have no experience of MASHAM however I'd be suprised if it was treated as an ACOP, as I understand it they are regulations and therefore law?



MASHAM 93 is an ACOP, no two ways about it.

ACOPs do have a special legal status, yes, but they are not the piece of legislation under which you would be prosecuted. The prosecution would simply make reference to the fact that you failed to comply an Approved Code Of Practice. That tells the Judge all he needs to know.


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ttxela

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 13:45:37
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sinker wrote:

ttxela wrote:

I have no experience of MASHAM however I'd be suprised if it was treated as an ACOP, as I understand it they are regulations and therefore law?



MASHAM 93 is an ACOP, no two ways about it.

ACOPs do have a special legal status, yes, but they are not the piece of legislation under which you would be prosecuted. The prosecution would simply make reference to the fact that you failed to comply an Approved Code Of Practice. That tells the Judge all he needs to know.


Sorry Sinker but I've had a look at the HSE website and I beg to differ, MASHAM appears to be a set of regulations much the same as any other set of HSE regulations (management regs etc.) which are law. There are a number of ACOPS which set out guidance as to how to comply with MASHAM (ACOP 39,67,64,50 etc.)

Semantics perhaps but MASHAM is the law and these seperate ACOPS are guidance in how to comply.

Admittedly I do not work in mining and am unfamiliar with these particular regs but I am depressingly familiar with how this works in general Sad I do suspect however that there is very littel scope for deviating from the ACOPS as you suggest.
IP: 91.143.75.2
sinker

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 13:52:16
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ttxela wrote:



Semantics perhaps but MASHAM is the law and these seperate ACOPS are guidance in how to comply.



Yes sorry I see your point now, I had deviated slightly (in my own head Laugh Laugh ) from the original post on MASHAM.
MASHAM is the regs, and the ACOPs bolt on the side like an instruction manual. Flowers Flowers

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Crime doesn't stand a chance .... IP: 86.178.236.90
ttxela

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 14:20:06
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No worries, I was being a little pedantic.

The implication for the OP is of course if the requirement for abandonment plans is within the regs or detailed in an accompanying ACOP.

If it is the latter then in theory at least he is free to try and come up with some alternative to a plan that serves the same purpose (as unlikely as that may be).

I suspect however that it is a requirement of the regs?
IP: 91.143.75.2
derrickman

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 15:21:45
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It was always my understanding that MASHAM was and is, a consolidation of previous legislation under various headings having the effect of law and the ACOPS served as clarifications of certain aspects of that

--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
IP: 85.132.15.35 Edited: 13/02/2013 15:22:28 by derrickman
Trewillan

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 15:57:43
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sinker wrote:

Yes, however you can't be prosecuted under MASHAM, it is basically just a COP...


No, MASHAM is Regulations, with an accompanying code of practice.
IP: 87.114.180.66
Trewillan

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 16:01:52
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sinker wrote:

MASHAM 93 is an ACOP, no two ways about it.



Wrong again "sinker". MASHAM is not an ACOP. There is an ACOP on the MASHAM Regulations, but that is a different thing.
IP: 87.114.180.66
ttxela

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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 16:11:55
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OK so we've established that but...

Is the requirement for plans in the regulations or is it a recommendation of an ACOP?

IP: 91.143.75.2
Ty Gwyn

Joined: 30/10/2009
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Requirement for Mine Plans
Posted: 13/02/2013 16:45:12
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Regarding Coal Mining,its a requirment to have working plans up-dated every 4mths. IP: 86.170.196.155
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