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Author Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Peteraf

Joined: 29/04/2012
Location: West Wales

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 14/06/2012 15:12:58
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Only just seen this one and have just been talking on phone about it am now wating on the paperwork. The site is also on list for ICOMOS meeting IP: 86.134.205.41
BertyBasset

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Joined: 13/12/2007
Location: Caernarfon, North Wales

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 17/06/2012 10:09:58
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Article from Thursday's C&D

http://www.caernarfonherald.co.uk/caernarfon-county-news/local-caernarfon-news/2012/06/14/new-lease-of-life-for-disused-llanberis-quarry-88817-31185430/
IP: 194.28.139.160
Peteraf

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 17/06/2012 11:59:46
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Thanks for the update IP: 86.134.205.57
SimonRL

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 24/06/2012 21:52:45
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For anybody with an interest in the subject there is a community exhibition day show the proposals of the Quarry Battery company's development at Glyn Rhonwy.

Plans will be on show and staff on hand to answer questions and comments.

Friday 29th June 10am - 4.30pm & Saturday 30th June 10am - 7.30pm Legacy Royal Victoria Hotel Llanberis Gwynedd LL55 4TY

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&cp=24&gs_id=2s&xhr=t&aq=0&aqi=g3&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1920&bih=1060&wrapid=tljp1340596359506047&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=royal+victoria+hotel+llanberis&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=royal+victoria+hotel&hnear=0x4865083adcf9019d:0x661d4ddca71a0d79,Llanberis,+Gwynedd&cid=0,0,18069249874356132583&sa=X&ei=CH7nT5uWF8m90QXq5qnvCA&sqi=2&ved=0CL0BEPwSMAU

--

Half the lies you tell ain't true
IP: 217.39.49.24 Edited: 24/06/2012 21:53:19 by SimonRL
SimonRL

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 08/12/2012 12:54:22
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More on this has been reported on the Beeb today. Objections raised by the Snowdonia Society and the BMC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-20597415

BBC News wrote:

Concerns have been raised about plans for a £100m pump storage hydroelectric power generation scheme on the edge of Snowdonia National Park.

The Snowdonia Society charity says it is worried about the effect the Glyn Rhonwy scheme may have on the wildlife, culture and heritage of the area.

The Quarry Battery Company says it will do everything to minimise the impact.


--

Half the lies you tell ain't true
IP: 217.39.48.9
Wormster

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Joined: 15/08/2006
Location: Top of the Mendip Hills

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 08/12/2012 14:27:44
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I can't help feeling that this application like most of the others is just "pie in the sky" thinking. Some "gentlefolk in London" sitting behind desks dreaming up useless ideas, that, will eventually fizzle out like a damp squib.

Why not just leave the place alone to rot and continue to be a playground for nature to recolonise, there are better places for the "gentlefolk in London" to set up their rediculous schemes!

--

Better to regret something you have done - than to regret something you have not done.
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derrickman

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 08/12/2012 15:49:42
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there is a lot of money to be made in "green" energy scams if you have your hands in the right pockets in the House of Knaves; I think the chances one brick being laid on another in any foreseeable future are pretty much zero, though.

--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
IP: 85.132.15.32
BertyBasset

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Joined: 13/12/2007
Location: Caernarfon, North Wales

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 08/12/2012 21:39:01
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The council have allegedly put in a 'lot of infrastructure' in the hope of attracting something to the quarry, so you can be sure they'll support the scheme, and any other which may pop up if this one fails.

Interesting quote...
Dave Holmes, managing director of the Quarry Battery Company, says that as a small firm they may only be taking the scheme through the planning stages, looking for someone else to take on the £100m construction project if approved.

I also note that some work has already started near the end of the small road coming up from Waun, and there's a planning notice up there which I didn't read due to it bucketing down.
IP: 217.43.72.235
ChrisJC

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 09:07:07
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Sorry to be controversial, but what a load of wingeing old cobblers.

I would think that a scheme that is of benefit to all, in terms of green energy and job creation would be welcomed with open arms!

I see no drawbacks.

If I were the boss, I'd cut the power to these idiots for a few weeks, with the message that if we don't get our act together it'll be permanent. And the sea will be lapping at their door. Talk about myopic.

Chris.
IP: 86.140.33.79
sinker

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 11:21:33
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ChrisJC wrote:

Sorry to be controversial, but what a load of wingeing old cobblers.


Not quite. This has a whiff of scam about it. I work for a company who are term contractors for two of the largest hydro generators in North Wales (one of which, First Hydro, operates the Dinorwig Pumped Storage station and Tan y Grisiau, it's prototype) and basically any station smaller than Dinorwig only makes money because of charging the Grid extortionate rates for 5 minutes of peak power now and then when we all put the kettle on after the Queen's speech, or in the case of the "micro generators", from ROCs payments. When I say micro generators, I'm including the "other large hydro generator" in North Wales, who have many small generating stations dotted around the region. The decision is made daily whether to run or not, depending on the prevailing rates, and the ROCs cheques keep rolling in when they do. The ROCS payments come from our taxes, which means that we are subsidising green energy that we may or may not use..... Confused
Yes we need sustainable and renewable energy, and I would vote with both hands for this type of scheme working as I do in the construction/tunnelling industry, but the figures on this scheme don't add up.

--

Crime doesn't stand a chance .... IP: 86.150.170.4 Edited: 09/12/2012 12:12:19 by sinker
SimonRL

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 12:40:00
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ChrisJC wrote:

Sorry to be controversial, but what a load of wingeing old cobblers.

I would think that a scheme that is of benefit to all, in terms of green energy and job creation would be welcomed with open arms!

I see no drawbacks.

If I were the boss, I'd cut the power to these idiots for a few weeks, with the message that if we don't get our act together it'll be permanent. And the sea will be lapping at their door. Talk about myopic.

Chris.


I have to admit I am not convinced by the green credentials of pumped storage. Of 'always on' hydro power, yes, but not pumped storage.

It's accepted that pumped storage uses more power to pump the water back up to the upper store; I think the figure of 70 to 85% efficiency is the norm.

Therefore pumped storage plants are net consumers of electricity. And unless there is a guarantee that electricity comes from renewable sources I don't see that as overtly green.

The scoping report doesn't labour the green credentials, there are a couple of pages about renewables, but they mostly cite government targets.

Wind and tidal (once installed) are net producers of energy, as is traditional hydro. Wind is intermittent; tidal seems under utilised.

What in unequivocal is that pumped storage is the largest form of grid-energy storage available and has scope to level output from intermittent (read renewable) sources.

So this isn't green energy of the type sold to us as the cure for climate change. It will be a net consumer of electricity and as such we need convincing there is a clear need for another pumped storage scheme.




--

Half the lies you tell ain't true
IP: 217.39.48.9
JohnnearCfon

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Joined: 22/12/2005
Location: Sir Caernarfon

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 12:56:11
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When commissioned, Dinorwig power station information documents said "it uses 4 units of electricity to produce 3.

As they have fairly recently enlarged the upper reservoir (Llyn Marchlyn) presumably it is an even bigger "user" of electricity.

Our proposed use (mis-use? at least as far as the proposals for the Severn are concerned) is very wasteful. In a (very small) nutshell, the propsed use of the Severn gets uses just two phases of the tides, whereas other (continental) schemes use four phases of the tides. I hope "Digit" is following this thread. He will enjoy elaborating on that.

IP: 78.147.34.233 Edited: 09/12/2012 12:58:12 by JohnnearCfon
Manicminer

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 13:19:14
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Pumped storage works on the basis that they can use cheap electricity off peak to pump the water back to the highest point. They make money when they sell the electricity that they generate for a few minutes to cover the ad breaks in Corrie etc for which they won after a bidding process. Pumped storage is about making money while there is a risk of the National Grid going tits up during a peak nothing else.
They sell small quantities of expensive energy and buy large amounts of cheap electricity all for a nice profit. They use more energy than they produce (70-82% efficiency is one figure I have seen).

--

Gold is where you find it
IP: 95.147.255.134
ChrisJC

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 13:40:27
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simonrl wrote:


What in unequivocal is that pumped storage is the largest form of grid-energy storage available and has scope to level output from intermittent (read renewable) sources.


Precisely. So without pumped storage, we can't have wind / solar / tidal. Since we are getting more 'unreliable' energy sources, I suspect we will need more storage on the grid.
The fact that it's not 100% efficient isn't surprising. Provided it's more efficient than running coal just in case everybody puts the kettle on, that's sufficient.

And the arguments about the cost of it all are misguided. It's not an economic argument. It's an ecological argument. If a type of power generation has a beneficial impact on the environment, then we should use it, even if it does cost more.
The purely economic argument would mean we just run coal until it runs out because it's cheap. Then run around in the dark for a bit until we've converted over to the next cheapest. (probably dying in vast number too)
To avoid this scenario (which is exactly where pure capitalism would take us), the government has skewed the economics to try to move us towards the ecological argument. This is the correct approach.

I saw this coming, so I have solar panels. Therefore my electricity is free and I make a tidy profit too.

Chris.

IP: 86.140.33.79
sinker

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 13:57:54
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ChrisJC wrote:



.....my electricity is free and I make a tidy profit too.

Chris.



Do you feed into the grid? So you get the ROCs? Is that the profit or the pay back on the initial capital investment?
This is not a "leading" question, its "just" a question Flowers


--

Crime doesn't stand a chance .... IP: 86.150.170.4
Trewillan

Joined: 21/02/2012

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 16:12:42
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simonrl wrote:


It's accepted that pumped storage uses more power to pump the water back up to the upper store; I think the figure of 70 to 85% efficiency is the norm.

Therefore pumped storage plants are net consumers of electricity. And unless there is a guarantee that electricity comes from renewable sources I don't see that as overtly green.


Pumped storage uses off-peak power, the big power stations run at more of a "steady-state", which increases efficiency. Could that compensate for the inefficiency of pumped storage? But if its 75-80% efficient that's not bad at all.

Tidal is under-utilised because its out of sight, politicians want/need big visible things, like wind turbines.
IP: 87.112.244.80
Morlock

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 17:11:13
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Trewillan wrote:

Tidal is under-utilised because its out of sight, politicians want/need big visible things, like wind turbines.


No modern Government will commit to anything as expensive as the proposed (big/visible) Severn Barrage, or anything else long term? Cursing
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SimonRL

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 17:13:24
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Trewillan wrote:

simonrl wrote:


It's accepted that pumped storage uses more power to pump the water back up to the upper store; I think the figure of 70 to 85% efficiency is the norm.

Therefore pumped storage plants are net consumers of electricity. And unless there is a guarantee that electricity comes from renewable sources I don't see that as overtly green.


Pumped storage uses off-peak power, the big power stations run at more of a "steady-state", which increases efficiency. Could that compensate for the inefficiency of pumped storage? But if its 75-80% efficient that's not bad at all.

Tidal is under-utilised because its out of sight, politicians want/need big visible things, like wind turbines.


Aye, I know Smile

I'm not arguing against hydro, renewables or pumped storage. I'm not denying the need for a long term energy policy.

My point was simply in response to the green energy comment.

The Glynrhonwy project isn't that large. Therefore it's impact as a top-up to renewable power for when - presumably - the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine won't be that great.

But that point itself asks the question, what is the end to end carbon footprint of - say - a windfarm that requires the backup of - say - a pumped storage plant which uses - say - 25% more power than it generates? And if we assume that they pump back up at night (which they do) then the sun definitely won't be shining and the wind is statistically less likely to be blowing so where's the power coming from? Coal, gas or nuclear. Which proves the need for a long term energy plan encompassing both traditional and renewal forms of power generation.

It is also accepted that green power is more expensive. Given a pumped storage scheme will be in the business of making money they will - presumably - be keen to source the cheapest power they can.

I'm all for capital projects, job creation and a common sense long term view to our energy requirements.

If there's a case for more pumped storage then build more pumped storage.

And build Wylfa B as well please Smile

As an aside, I understand QBC will be doing landscaping work to allow for the mountain bike trails as well. More tourism income is something the area needs very badly.



--

Half the lies you tell ain't true
IP: 217.39.48.9 Edited: 09/12/2012 17:17:37 by SimonRL
derrickman

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 17:22:45
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the only thing that really needs saying is to look at EDF's Chinese investors. Their eggs are in the basket marked "nuclear" and sooner or later they will get on with it and build their much-delayed, much-advertised UK nuclear stations when the demand is right.

Look across the Atlantic; the Americans are getting ever-cheaper energy from shale gas, and oil sands will follow. There are staggering quantities of oil and gas in the deep-water zones of the China Sea, enough for India and China to go toe-to-toe over.

You can see the future, and it isn't little toy windmills and "carbon trading" scams.


--

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
IP: 85.132.15.32 Edited: 09/12/2012 17:23:23 by derrickman
Digit

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Glynrhonwy - the saga continues
Posted: 09/12/2012 18:45:52
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Involving Dinorwig in this thread can be a little misleading. Dinorwig and the proposed Glynrhonwy scheme are very different animals.

Dinorwig is a pumped storage system but that is the only similarity. The primary reason why Dinorwig was built was to maintain the stability of the National Grid i.e. to keep the voltage and frequency of the mains within specified limits. Very nasty things can happen if this critical function is not carried out. To this end its design was optimised for a) very fast run-up from zero to whatever was required and b) to maintain its output for a period long enough for other stations to adjust their outputs as needed. Sounds simple but it isn't. On one hand you have to cope with the brief surge of demand when an advert break occures in a popular program (which is predictable both in time and degree). On the other hand you have to cope with the unexpected and unpredicted (possibly instantaneous) loss of a major power station (something which should not happen - but occasionally does). To be able to do that with an efficiency of about 75% is pretty good. Having said that, it can and to a degree does function both as a "battery" and as a conventional hydro station, after all you only need to pump water if the upper lake is low and we have lots of rain here.

The Glynrhonwy scheme is a pure pump storage scheme, pump when cheap electrictity is available, generate whenever you can sell at the right price. There is a sensible requirement for such a scheme but the proposed scheme is way too small. Something about 100 times the size would be about right but where is the public/political will to dam and flood a couple of large areas (preferably in an area of high rainfall).

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