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Author Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
viewer

Joined: 04/09/2007
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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 11:54:56
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derrickman wrote:

Peter Burgess wrote:

Absolutely - provided it can be shown that the NUM falsified statements in order to get individuals put into prison for crimes that were not committed. Hmmmm.......


frankly, it would be my suggestion that people with no first-hand knowledge of the affair might usefully keep their opinions to themselves. The phrase "useful idiots" comes to mind.




derrickman


Wheal Harriett or Dolcoath
Posted: 22/10/2012 16:51:15

I picked up a few scraps about this from colleagues.


#justsayin

Laugh Blush

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derrickman

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 12:32:42
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The miners' strike was a profoundly divisive event which shaped the world we live in today. It was a complex and difficult issue which was not understood by those not directly involved.

It needs to be remembered that the miners' perception that the Tories meant to destroy their livelihood was well-founded. It also needs to be remembered that their own union had long sought, by various means, to prevent a charismatic extremist like Scargill leading the union to division and catastrophe by "Preventing the Yorkshire tail wagging the national dog", as it was explained to me subsequently.

Gormley led the miners to victory in a strike which never actually took place; Scargill led them to disaster in one that did, although it had no proper sanction.

It must also be remembered that the strike was preceded by a long period in which national stocks were built up to the highest levels on record. Either Scargill was the greatest fool in Christendom, or it was always his intention that the strike be long and bitter; a fight to the death, or to uncontested political control of the industry and thereby, Parliament

It touched everyone who was involved, and many who weren't. It changed my life, because my job with an NCB contractor disappeared overnight and there seemed no value in awaiting events. Certainly the NUM had no interest at all in the fate of contractors and their employees.



Well, that was long ago and in another country, and besides, the wench is dead.




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''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
IP: 86.30.241.199 Edited: 23/10/2012 12:33:57 by derrickman
Peter Burgess

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 12:59:54
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... all of which is not really relevant, as this subject is about one specific day, and the particular actions that certain people undertook on that and on subsequent days. It could just as easily be about any violent confrontation between disaffected citizens and the authorities. Introducing political flavour to the enquiry will only serve to muddy the waters and distort the search for truth.

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 13:32:21
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Peter Burgess wrote:

... all of which is not really relevant, as this subject is about one specific day


... which was completely isolated from preceeding days, as they had no effect on the events of the day........

Chris.
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Peter Burgess

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 13:41:37
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Don't be silly. I may be a useful idiot, but even I know that the whole sad saga is all interconnected, but it doesn't change the fact that the enquiry is about one specific day. Hillsborough investigations were not about the whole business of crowd management and general stadium safety, it was about the one specific event and the deceit that followed.

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derrickman

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 14:08:09
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... and I'm sure that the results will be about as useful as might be expected from such an artificially constrained remit.

Hillsborough, when all is said and done, was a single event, the causes of which were not deliberate and the tragic events which transpired were unforeseen.

The conduct of the police subsequently was a specific train of events which took place within a single force and to a considerable extent, within the control of a limited number of individuals.

To compare this to the miners' strike, a protracted and highly contentious series of events taking place on a number of levels, is absurd. To claim otherwise is folly, not least because I have no doubt at all that neither side has ever given a full and honest account of their motives or actions, or ever will, and because those motives and actions, and the interpretation of the outcome are so subjective as to defy consensus.


I don't propose to express any opinion on a highly emotive issue like Hillsborough, except to say that I find it difficult to understand what has really been achieved at this late stage. The real effects were seen long ago, with the Taylor Report and its consequences; whatever happens in the Premiership this weekend, won't be another Hillborough - or Heysel, or Bradford - because the causes have been removed.

This was because the Taylor Report, although its primary finding was that the tragedy was caused by a lack of police control, was also concerned with a range of issues of ground safety and construction and extensive changes ensued very quickly.



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''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
IP: 86.30.241.199 Edited: 23/10/2012 14:14:16 by derrickman
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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 14:25:50
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derrickman wrote:



To compare this to the miners' strike, a protracted and highly contentious series of events taking place on a number of levels, is absurd.


Who is comparing it with a strike? Not me! The comparison suggested is between two events, both of which were policed, and both of which, it is now either proven or alleged, were followed by a distortion of the truth. The comparison is not with the strike as a whole, but the policing and investigation of two specific events. I think it likely certain individuals might have been involved in both. Seems to me like justification enough to make a sensible comparison.

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 14:37:22
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Moderation: For various reasons, I'd be grateful if Hillsborough were kept out of this discussion.

Suffice to say that I was there in '88, the year before the disaster; and that the main reason we weren't there the following year was that my father wasn't happy taking his two relatively young sons there again after the experiences of the previous year.

I suspect that very, very few people on this forum have a sufficient knowledge of what happened on that terrible day to make or refute comparisons and I would prefer not to have to delete posts to avoid having to point out to people where they are wrong.


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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 14:38:00
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I really do suggest that you educate yourself a little.

Orgreave was a staged confrontation forming an integral part of the miners' strike and its surrounding context. It was a stage-managed event in which the NUM bussed in several thousand pickets from considerable distances away for the express purpose of demonstrating that they were above the law, and against a background of union activism by which the TUC sought to demonstrate that it could and would act collectively to ignore the law as it saw fit.

What is YOUR involvement in this issue, that you feel the need to snipe from the sidelines thirty years on, in a matter you appear to have no understanding of at all?



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''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
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Peter Burgess

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 14:47:52
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I knew that, thank you - so no need to "educate myself" as you put it.

My "involvement", as you also put it, is as an intelligent human being, capable of rationalising things that are said, capable of forming views based on the things put in front of me, capable of discussing things with respect for both sides of a debate, capable of being influenced by what others think or present that is new to the debate, capable and prepared to allow my view to change with new "evidence" - basically someone who is entitled to debate things, learn from the debate, possibly influence it with my own input, and not be put off by people who think they know it all - thankfully nobody on this forum falls into the latter category. Smile

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grahami

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 14:49:54
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I think at this point we should drop this. It is an issue over which people can have diametrically opposed views, quite legitimately and I suggest WE should leave it to the courts and, sadly, the media to sort it out, if at all possible.

It is, as has already been said, a long time ago, and quite literally, in another world, as is/was Northern Ireland.

Can we get back to Mine Exploration and as far away from divisive politics as possible ?

The ramifications and fall out from the Hillsborough report will rumble on for some time yet, it will be interesting to see what happens - but not here, please ?
[EDIT -Posted before Vanoord put his moderation in]
Grahami

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IP: 212.219.117.106 Edited: 23/10/2012 14:52:32 by grahami
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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 15:21:15
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grahami wrote:

I think at this point we should drop this. It is an issue over which people can have diametrically opposed views, quite legitimately and I suggest WE should leave it to the courts and, sadly, the media to sort it out, if at all possible.

It is, as has already been said, a long time ago, and quite literally, in another world, as is/was Northern Ireland.

Can we get back to Mine Exploration and as far away from divisive politics as possible ?

The ramifications and fall out from the Hillsborough report will rumble on for some time yet, it will be interesting to see what happens - but not here, please ?
[EDIT -Posted before Vanoord put his moderation in]
Grahami


Common sense, at last!

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Ty Gwyn

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 16:03:40
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I hope my butty,Miner 1985 see`s this thread,he was there that day,and can clarify some of the inaccuracies in the above posts.

Nothing like someone on the ground as they say.
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Trewillan

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 16:15:39
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Ty Gwyn wrote:

I hope my butty,Miner 1985 see`s this thread,he was there that day,and can clarify some of the inaccuracies in the above posts.

Nothing like someone on the ground as they say.


Orgreave or Hillsborough?
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droid

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 17:16:19
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This idea that you had to be directly involved in order to comment is erroneous. it's entirely possible to be directly involved but by dint of ignorance or prejudice to not be in full possession of the facts.

Mate of mine was AT Orgreave. In the melee, not observng from an armchair. He went to support friends who were miners, but had no idea of the political machinations behind the event.

Would his opinions of the day be more valid than Peter's, Derrickman?
IP: 86.20.198.141 Edited: 23/10/2012 17:18:39 by droid
Ty Gwyn

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 18:14:17
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droid wrote:



Mate of mine was AT Orgreave. In the melee, not observng from an armchair. He went to support friends who were miners, but had no idea of the political machinations behind the event.

Would his opinions of the day be more valid than Peter's, Derrickman?


Less valid,because your mate had no idea what his mates were fighting for.
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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 18:23:18
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Arguably you need some distance from an event to get a clear and balanced understanding of it, whatever that event may be.

By distance I mean spatial, temporal and, possibly most importantly, emotional distance
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derrickman

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 18:40:44
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I think they would, yes. Why did he do that? What did he seek to achieve? What did he believe he was supporting?

It was a time when all concerned had to make decisions and stand by them. Those choices were often limited, in ways the wider public did not understand, but anyone involved "shall say in later years, these wounds I had on St Crispin's day"


Looking at the three posts above, I think the earlier point that the events of that time defy consensus is wholly proven.





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''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
IP: 86.30.241.199 Edited: 23/10/2012 18:43:40 by derrickman
droid

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 18:45:05
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derrickman wrote:

I think they would, yes. Why did he do that? What did he seek to achieve? What did he believe he was supporting?



Interesting.

How could they make such a decision on the validity of my friend's opinions without asking the questions that you seem to post as an afterthought?

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Breaking news on the battle of Orgreave
Posted: 23/10/2012 19:29:27
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To say that we should express an opinion is just daft
whether we were there or not is really irrelevant
i thought this was a forum somewhere topics can be discussed
if we are not allowed an opinion because we were not there , then we had better stop discussing all the old slate , lead , copper and tin mines of the Victorian era as we were not there either
as for the comparison with Hillsborough There isn't one and the only thing that links the two is it's the same police force
I knew when i started this it was an emotive subject but please , don't go telling people they can't have an opinion because they were not there or directly involved
that is the case in most things people discuss

Opinions are like arseholes Everybody has one !
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