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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author Emergency air
Roy Morton

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Joined: 09/10/2007
Location: Redruth Cornwall

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Emergency air
Posted: 13/08/2012 23:42:07
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Serious Irony.... Wink

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lozz

Joined: 03/08/2012
Location: Cornwall

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 09:21:25
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After all that's like flushing out a raise but in reverse as it were.

Lozz.
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Hal_Chase

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Joined: 28/11/2010
Location: East Northants

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 09:38:40
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I wouldn't consider 10 mins of air worth having, unless of course you aren't going very far.

30 mins is getting to a sensible point but only if you are 100% guaranteed to get back to good air in 30 mins (consider getting lost/injured/delayed) otherwise you may as well leave it in your car.

Re: BA - Go read about Rules Of Thirds, that way you're less likely to die.

What others have said about 4Gas makes some sense but don't overlook Co2, its just as dangerous as lack of 02 but I've never seen a 4gas that detects it (they are normally 02, CO, H2S and CH4).



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Ty Gwyn

Joined: 30/10/2009
Location: Lampeter

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 10:01:09
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lozz wrote:

After all that's like flushing out a raise but in reverse as it were.

Lozz.
,

Like us tying up the bagging,facing out of the roadway,to blow out after firing,lets have some chaff while the smoke clears.
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Trewillan

Joined: 21/02/2012

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 10:38:11
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lozz wrote:

After all that's like flushing out a raise but in reverse as it were.

Lozz.


No it isn't. A raise is a blind end with limited volume.

Using an airline to blow out a shaft, possibly connected to old workings, would be completely ineffective. Have a think about volumes and flow rates.
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Trewillan

Joined: 21/02/2012

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 10:42:02
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Hal_Chase wrote:


What others have said about 4Gas makes some sense but don't overlook Co2, its just as dangerous as lack of 02 but I've never seen a 4gas that detects it (they are normally 02, CO, H2S and CH4).



Draeger make a 5-gas detector which can include CO2. I'm sure there are others.
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Hal_Chase

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 12:22:26
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Trewillan wrote:

Draeger make a 5-gas detector which can include CO2. I'm sure there are others.


Thanks, never seen one before Thumb Up

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lozz

Joined: 03/08/2012
Location: Cornwall

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 14:52:30
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Trewillan wrote:

lozz wrote:

After all that's like flushing out a raise but in reverse as it were.

Lozz.


No it isn't. A raise is a blind end with limited volume.

Using an airline to blow out a shaft, possibly connected to old workings, would be completely ineffective. Have a think about volumes and flow rates.


Depends I suppose if the shaft is blocked and how far down it is blocked, having an air line within your grasp is still not a bad idea though as far as I can see.

Lozz.
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Trewillan

Joined: 21/02/2012

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 15:29:42
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lozz wrote:

Trewillan wrote:

lozz wrote:

After all that's like flushing out a raise but in reverse as it were.

Lozz.


No it isn't. A raise is a blind end with limited volume.

Using an airline to blow out a shaft, possibly connected to old workings, would be completely ineffective. Have a think about volumes and flow rates.


Depends I suppose if the shaft is blocked and how far down it is blocked, having an air line within your grasp is still not a bad idea though as far as I can see.

Lozz.


Something that gives you a false sense of security is most definitely a bad idea.

Think again about the effect of say 100cfm from an airline in a typical shaft. It will be negligible.
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lozz

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Location: Cornwall

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 16:07:36
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Trewillan wrote:

lozz wrote:

Trewillan wrote:

lozz wrote:

After all that's like flushing out a raise but in reverse as it were.

Lozz.


No it isn't. A raise is a blind end with limited volume.

Using an airline to blow out a shaft, possibly connected to old workings, would be completely ineffective. Have a think about volumes and flow rates.


Depends I suppose if the shaft is blocked and how far down it is blocked, having an air line within your grasp is still not a bad idea though as far as I can see.

Lozz.


Something that gives you a false sense of security is most definitely a bad idea.

Think again about the effect of say 100cfm from an airline in a typical shaft. It will be negligible.


I think we have crossed wires maybe, I am meaning an airline in close proximity or say attatched to your belt so you can unhook it and wave it in front of your face, if your bottled air runs out, at least you have that, 'tis better than 'nowt, if for whatever reason you didn't have bottled air to start with it is still better than 'nowt.
I can remember certain situations when working in the mines that open an airline was the only way to get rid of the chest pains.

Lozz.
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stuey

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Joined: 15/08/2007

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 16:52:06
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Lots of companies do various sensor swaps for meters, including CO2. A sensor alone is over £200, I think.

I'd probably lose CO from my 4 gas for Cornwall.

CO2 can be useful as you do bump into it occasionally, also it builds up from a load of chaps straining in poor oxygen.....quite quickly to the point of being nasty.
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Trewillan

Joined: 21/02/2012

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 17:56:36
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stuey wrote:

Lots of companies do various sensor swaps for meters, including CO2. A sensor alone is over £200, I think.

I'd probably lose CO from my 4 gas for Cornwall.

CO2 can be useful as you do bump into it occasionally, also it builds up from a load of chaps straining in poor oxygen.....quite quickly to the point of being nasty.


CO would probably be from vehicle exhausts, so yes, that is probably the one you could do without. Unless you are running an engine driven winch on a shaft!

I don't think you could do a straight swap to a CO2 sensor on a standard 4-gas meter. They are not listed as an option and work differently to all the other sensors. (I think its infra-red for CO2, the others are electro-chemical.) So its either an additional single gas meter or a 5-gas meter with CO2 as original fit.

You have previously mentioned H2S, which you suggest is from rotting organic material. Have you ever detected any CH4?
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rufenig

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Joined: 18/03/2008
Location: Shropshire Hills

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 18:10:58
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Moderators please!!!!
BA sets and instructions off a web site.

Gas monitors because we can not research what the risk is before we enter!!!

Entering ANY old coal measures A. illegal and B. probably irresponsable.

Ok I may be an old fart but we understod the risk and would not enter some workings.
Just think a ten min "walk out" air supply trying to suport an SRT exit.
I would give you 2 Min!!!!!

Rant over
Either BAN
ot tell me that I am an old GIT.
It's not my life at risk
With all the publicity WHEN a fatality happens.

By By Cursing Ban Me Ban Me
IP: 146.90.134.20
Trewillan

Joined: 21/02/2012

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 18:13:05
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lozz wrote:

I think we have crossed wires maybe, I am meaning an airline in close proximity or say attatched to your belt so you can unhook it and wave it in front of your face, if your bottled air runs out, at least you have that, 'tis better than 'nowt, if for whatever reason you didn't have bottled air to start with it is still better than 'nowt.

Lozz.


Don't even think about it.

Your suggested scenario is untrained people buying second hand BA off E-bay, descending shafts with known "bad air" i.e. an atmosphere that will kill you. And if its SRT you won't get yourself out, even if you are still conscious.

The whole idea is asking for trouble.

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Vanoord

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Joined: 28/11/2005
Location: North Wales

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 18:23:06
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rufenig wrote:

Moderators please!!!!
BA sets and instructions off a web site.

Gas monitors because we can not research what the risk is before we enter!!!

Entering ANY old coal measures A. illegal and B. probably irresponsable.

Ok I may be an old fart but we understod the risk and would not enter some workings.
Just think a ten min "walk out" air supply trying to suport an SRT exit.
I would give you 2 Min!!!!!

Rant over
Either BAN
ot tell me that I am an old GIT.
It's not my life at risk
With all the publicity WHEN a fatality happens.


I disagree.

Discussion is a good idea, especially if it prevents someone from doing something they might otherwise have done.

A few idle thoughts:
(i) Coal mines are damn dangerous and best kept away from
(ii) SRT with breathing apparatus is not a very good idea at all
(iii) Gas detectors should be properly tested and serviced
(iv) If you don't know what you're doing, get trained
(v) Some places are not safe to enter

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SimonRL

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Joined: 27/11/2005
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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 18:25:49
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Vanoord wrote:

(i) Coal mines are damn dangerous and best kept away from


Any coal mine is illegal to access.

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lozz

Joined: 03/08/2012
Location: Cornwall

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 18:33:35
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Trewillan wrote:

lozz wrote:

I think we have crossed wires maybe, I am meaning an airline in close proximity or say attatched to your belt so you can unhook it and wave it in front of your face, if your bottled air runs out, at least you have that, 'tis better than 'nowt, if for whatever reason you didn't have bottled air to start with it is still better than 'nowt.

Lozz.


Don't even think about it.

Your suggested scenario is untrained people buying second hand BA off E-bay, descending shafts with known "bad air" i.e. an atmosphere that will kill you. And if its SRT you won't get yourself out, even if you are still conscious.

The whole idea is asking for trouble.



Err, no, did not mention Ebay whatsoever, did not suggest anything, the reader decides wether it is a suggestion or not or wether it's a good or bad idea, I have know idea what SRT is, an idea is not a suggestion, I have been told by a member of this forum that BA means bottled air following an enquiry by myself as to what BA meant, if I was descending or ascending a shaft by whatever means and I had run out/lost or for whatever reason lost my access to fresh air when in bad air I would sure be glad of a fresh airline within my grasp.
I never mentioned scenario, however you have....

Lozz.
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Vanoord

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 18:37:05
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I think the important bit is to ensure that you're not descending a shaft which hasn't got enough breathable air in it.

You shouldn't get into a position like that where emergency air is required - that's very bad planning.


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Wormster

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 18:38:40
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Gentlemen, gentlemen please.................no fighting in the war room!!

I've been watching this topic for a few days now before commenting.

Legalites aside, SRT and BA sounds dogy in my book, better to get a Crowcon Tetra :

http://www.crowcon.com/uk/products/portables/tetra.html

(I won't repeat the usual blabber)

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lozz

Joined: 03/08/2012
Location: Cornwall

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Emergency air
Posted: 14/08/2012 18:56:09
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Vanoord wrote:

I think the important bit is to ensure that you're not descending a shaft which hasn't got enough breathable air in it.

You shouldn't get into a position like that where emergency air is required - that's very bad planning.


Sometimes easier said than done, I own some old mine workings and part of a long tunnel, the tunnel at the moment has only two means of access, the first is the entrance portal (adit level) the second is by an air shaft, both these means of access are in close proximity to each other so air at the begining is no problem, when we last went in there some years ago we got in about 400 yds 'till it started to silt up (the tunnel has flowing water in it) the air at that point was ok, there were four of us, all ex miners/mine explorers including a mining engineer, we were all breathing fine at that distance no problem.
But things can change, the air that far in might not now be up to spec, but we don't know 'till we get in that far so BA is prudent I would guess.

Lozz.
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