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Author CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Roy Morton

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 01/08/2012 00:03:35
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Carnkie wrote; I've also been informed by a friend that the original ladder in the monument was of wood and people could go up it if they paid a penny.

I have also heard this, and when you could step inside and look up you could make out where the wooden staircase had been fixed to the walls. Sockets, some with timber stumps still in them. The staircase was allegedly destroyed by fire.
I also heard that Mr Basset was asked to contribute a little toward the miners that had erected the monument; his response was not favourable.
As for spending money in the community, it was lady Basset that was the philanthropist, being resposible for the building of a miners hospital.





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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 01/08/2012 00:05:54
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BASSETS: sweeties or all-sorts?

* Bassett family funded schools for the poor in the 18th century
* raised troops to defend Plymouth from possible Franco-Spanish attack in 1779
* part funded the new hospital in Truro in 1799
* petitioned the Government in 1807 not to buy copper from the Russians to help mining in Cornwall
(unsuccessfully)

I can readily accept that many of the Basset family were philanthropic but the monument is dedicated to one specific family member who I feel probably least deserves commemoration. I am not overly overwhelmed by the list above as I think the only unique gesture was his PART funding of a hospital so far away (in those days) as to make little difference (to miners anyway)
As is becoming quite clear to anyone reading this forum, I am not a historian because I would like you to imagine something & a historians don't tend to do that. Imagine (just for one moment) that Francis Lord de Dunstonville & Basset was a Quaker.....what a difference that would have made!
Like Clarks' or Cadburys' or Rowntree or Fry's....for example.
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carnkie

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 01/08/2012 00:19:37
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Roy Morton wrote:

Carnkie wrote; I've also been informed by a friend that the original ladder in the monument was of wood and people could go up it if they paid a penny.

I have also heard this, and when you could step inside and look up you could make out where the wooden staircase had been fixed to the walls. Sockets, some with timber stumps still in them. The staircase was allegedly destroyed by fire.
I also heard that Mr Basset was asked to contribute a little toward the miners that had erected the monument; his response was not favourable.
As for spending money in the community, it was lady Basset that was the philanthropist, being resposible for the building of a miners hospital.



Quite true Roy and Lady Basset also contributed quite alot to the memorial and the fund.

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carnkie

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 01/08/2012 00:35:51
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Keep-it-wheal wrote:

BASSETS: sweeties or all-sorts?

As is becoming quite clear to anyone reading this forum, I am not a historian because I would like you to imagine something & a historians don't tend to do that. Imagine (just for one moment) that Francis Lord de Dunstonville & Basset was a Quaker.....what a difference that would have made!
Like Clarks' or Cadburys' or Rowntree or Fry's....for example.


I don't see the point in that. History of course can be interpreted in different ways, even using original sources. You could go back in history and ask if and what over many eras, but what is the point?

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Peter Burgess

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 01/08/2012 08:22:34
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Why all this moralising over events that can't be undone, and monuments that can't be unbuilt? Regardless of whether Bassett was a goodie or a baddie, the monument is impressive and its history is interesting.

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Dolcoathguy

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 01/08/2012 09:45:45
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http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Historic-monument-finally-local-hands/story-16434000-detail/story.html

Rather ironic (in a sad way) that a man who made his money from copper mines suffers from all the copper being pinched from his monument.






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Keep-it-wheal

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 01/08/2012 11:04:49
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LET'S TAKE IT TO A DIFFERENT DIMENSION
I know that Carn Brea monument is supposed to be ninety feet in height but does anyone know its other vital satistics:
1) what area does it occupy?
2) how many blocks were used in its construction?
3) how many were employed in its construction?
4) how long did it take to construct?
5) are there any illustrations of it being constructed, anywhere?

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stuey

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 01/08/2012 13:25:03
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Dolcoathguy wrote:

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Historic-monument-finally-local-hands/story-16434000-detail/story.html

Rather ironic (in a sad way) that a man who made his money from copper mines suffers from all the copper being pinched from his monument.



Probably up United Downs by now and no-one saw a thing.
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Keep-it-wheal

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 02/08/2012 10:48:47
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"Why all this moralising over events that can't be undone, and monuments that can't be unbuilt? Regardless of whether Bassett was a goodie or a baddie, the monument is impressive and its history is interesting."

I can tell you why it is important to me because what I (& hopefully others) am trying to do is separate the myth from the reality.
When I was growing up in this area fifty years ago we believed this was a monument to the Basset family (not true) who had immeasurably improved the lot of the local mining community (contentious to say the least) It was conceived of & paid for & constructed by locals in gratitude for their benevolence (myth). As a youngster it seemed impossible for me ever to live up to the qualities that this monument represented but it sort of challenged you to try.
Perhaps I have failed to make that clear earlier. If so, the fault is all mine....
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Peter Burgess

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 02/08/2012 11:06:22
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OK then researching to discover facts and figures is the way to get what you want, and I think that this is actually what you are doing anyway. I was commenting on the moralising, which shouldn't form any part of research as it runs the risk of colouring the results.

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stuey

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 02/08/2012 12:21:36
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Trewillan wrote:



I think nearly every town in the country has one of these "tunnel" stories.

And they are all bollox.



Of course, it's easy to assume that. The Barncoose Adit runs from in the valley below Barncoose, right up under Carn Brea to S Carn Brea Engine Shaft. It might have been possible to work through open gunnisses down to the deep adit level and then following that either to the portal, or over to near Morrison's Car Park at Wheal Fortune Engine Shaft. It would have been possible at one point, according to the plans, to work ones way all the way over to Cooks Kitchen on the main Carn Brea lode.

Many Tunnel stories are "Bollox" as you so eloquently add, many are not.

Incidentally, I'd be very keen on knowing where the "workings which are extensive" (according to Atkinson's green book) on Carn Brea are. We have climbed around in the undergrowth and have found very little.....we thought we had struck gold, but that turned out to be the Wheal Basset adit.

The people who drove the Barncoose adit must have been dwarves. It must have been an awful workplace.
IP: 92.29.170.157 Edited: 02/08/2012 12:25:15 by stuey
Roy Morton

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 03/08/2012 02:02:32
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The Barncoose adit (Crofty Adit System) was remarkable in that prior to the collapse of one section, it was possible to enter at Barncoose end, pass through wheal Tehidy, Carn Brea Mine , Tincroft, Cook's Kitchen, etc etc, and exit at Roscroggan form the Dolcoath deep adit portal.
The collapsed section was just west of Druid's Whim and was suspended on chains over stoping up to the mid 1980's.
Allen Buckley is one of the few people I know that explored the system end to end.
I've seen one or two 'bits' myself, Innocent long time passing..... Sleeping

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 03/08/2012 10:21:36
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REDRUTH FOOD RIOTS:
RUTHLESSLY SUPPRESSED
or
RUEFULLY EXAGGERATED?

"I do not want to be appear to be argumentative but "eighty" specially-recruited "constables" raiding the family homes of fifty starving families at two o clock in the morning because they dared to protest at high food prices in Redruth seems quite heavy-handed to me. These offenders were carted off to Bodmin & threatened with death or deportation, hardly philanthropic in my humble opinion. Then Francis Basset steps in & hangs just the vicious & profligate one as an example to the others and "for the benefit of soiciety" ? I am sorry but I don't see that as a good reason for a monument on this scale. Help me out here!"

This is the version that seems to be bandied around & I should know, I added to it as the quote above is mine. However there seems little evidence of fifty miscreants turning up in the court records in Bodmin. Of course if someone can prove otherwise I will bow to their superior knowledge.
However CARNKIE does have a record of a John Hoskin (aged 55) who hailed from Carwinion who was publicly hanged in Bodmin on the 11th August 1796 for stealing wheat. He might the vicious & profligate rioter mentioned above. CARNKIE's source remembered being taken as a child to Roskear, where great crowds were assembled, to witness the body being brought home.
Two other names turn up in 1796 in the Bodmin Court records, Ann Pearce & Joel Grose. Both were acquitted of riot & misdedemeanour for want of evidence. That leaves a mere forty seven to account for. Is it possible the " special constables" were a midnight snatch squad that were sent in to scare the rioters into abandoning their illegal & threatening behaviour. It has been known!
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carnkie

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 03/08/2012 14:29:17
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Roy Morton wrote:

The Barncoose adit (Crofty Adit System) was remarkable in that prior to the collapse of one section, it was possible to enter at Barncoose end, pass through wheal Tehidy, Carn Brea Mine , Tincroft, Cook's Kitchen, etc etc, and exit at Roscroggan form the Dolcoath deep adit portal.
The collapsed section was just west of Druid's Whim and was suspended on chains over stoping up to the mid 1980's.
Allen Buckley is one of the few people I know that explored the system end to end.
I've seen one or two 'bits' myself, Innocent long time passing..... Sleeping


Does the Thomas map of 1819 show up part of this? I should add one the adits supplied water to the Redruth Workhouse.

Just to add so there is no misunderstang my record/source in k-i-ws post is Ham jenkins (1948)



(click image to open full size image in new window)

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Roy Morton

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 04/08/2012 01:03:21
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Carnkie wrote ;- Does the Thomas map of 1819 show up part of this? I should add one the adits supplied water to the Redruth Workhouse.

It shows most of it apart from the Wheal Raven/Shuffley Bottom portal, and the section through North Roskear to Roscroggan. It's a good old stank in a pair of wellies Laugh

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stuey

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 04/08/2012 10:17:06
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Comparing that one with the later adit plan shows one hell of a lot of it is missing. I can't remember where I've seen the Barncoose bit, but the main "other bit" can be seen here:-

http://www.cornishminers.com/images/phughes/Map%20of%20the%20mining%20setts.jpg
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Keep-it-wheal

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 04/08/2012 12:22:11
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HARDCORE MASONRY
The impressive monument on Carn Brea (Redruth) was to commemorate the BASSET (Lord De Dunstanville) family. Built in 1830's by public subscription but organised by the Provincial Grand Lodge of the Most Ancient and Honourable Order of Accepted & Free Masons (Provincial Grand Master, SIR JOHN ST. AUBYN Esq. Bart). In raising the moneys, their appeared to be a “hierarchy of giving" thus SIR CHARLES LEMON and LORD FALMOUTH gave £5 and lesser folk (solicitors, tradesmen etc.) gave a few shillings but no “common" folk appear on subscription lists. They sought the advice of polymath William Whewell on the construction.
Whewell was an academically- acclaimed Anglian priest, philosopher, scientist & mineralogist. (http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2871142) Maybe it was Whewell that suggested Richard Westmacott.
*
A massive crowd attended the Masonic foundation ceremony. The local folk who attended worked in mines owned by the Bassets and rumour has it, they would lose their jobs if they did not go and cheer.
( http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CORNISH/1999-03/0921670840
*
While visiting Olive Sorkin, a niece of John Henry Clifton in Camborne, her husband David mentioned that the poor miners who had enough trouble buying food for their families but they were forced to donate money for this monument while the Basset family lived in the lap of luxury. The Basset’s owned most of the land in the area and most of the mines. One wonders if Joseph Clifton, John’s father, worked on this monument — he was a stone mason.
(http://www.clifton.com/clifton/john-henry-clifton)
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Keep-it-wheal

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 04/08/2012 12:30:51
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CARN BREA MONUMENT: WHO PAYS THE QUARRYMEN?

* ADVERTISEMENT 1836 FALMOUTH 18th JUNE *
(decorated with masonic symbols across the top)
The Ancient and Honourable Society of Free and Accepted Masons, His Most Gracious Majesty The King, Royal Grand Patron, Sir John St. Aubyn, Bart. P.G. M. for CORNWALL THE ANNUAL FESTIVAL due to be held at Helston is unavoidably POSTPONED as the D.P.G.M., P. VYVYAN ROBINSON ESQ. & the other officers & members of the P.G.L. of Cornwall will attend with the DE DUNSTANVILLE MEMORIAL Committee for the purpose of laying the first stone of a structure on Carn Brea to the memory of that highly distinguished nobleman & brother. The ceremony to take place on Monday, 27th instant at one o'clock.
The P.G.L. will be opened at ANDREW'S HOTEL in REDUTH by eleven on that day & go from thence to Carn Brea Castle where they will meet the committee & proceed with them to the spot.
Brethren not members of the Prov. Grand Lodge, desirous of joining, must signify the same to the Director of the Ceremonies not later than ten o'clock on that day.
ELLIS Hon. P. G. Secretary & director of Ceremonies, Falmouth 18th June, A.L. 5826, A.D. 1836
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wbritonad/cornwall/1836/misc/jun.html

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Keep-it-wheal

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 04/08/2012 14:06:11
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CARN BREA MONUMENT: THE LONG, the TALL, the SHORT of IT

• Francis Lord de Dunstanville and Basset (or FBD) was born in Charlbury, Oxfordshire in 1775
• FDB was buried in Illogan in 1835
• FDB was not universally popular
• FDB did support the abolition of slavery
• FDB sent reinforcements to Plymouth to combat the perceived Franco-Spanish invasion threat
• FDR managed the transition from feudalism to venture capitalism by investing in Cornish mining
• FDR was a patron of the arts & bought works by Batoni, Piranesi, Cozens, Reynolds, Gainsborough & Opie amongst others.
• Musically he loved to hear a damn good Hayden
• His system of paying tokens to miners may have resulted in the Redruth Food Riots as these were only exchangeable in his stores at inflated & unjust prices (some claim)
• The Redruth Food Riots may have been periodic but reports of mass hangings & deportations remain unsubstantiated
• Freemasons conceived of, commissioned & collected funds for the construction of the Carn Brea monument
• Perhaps Richard Westmacott designed the monument (though whether it was Richard senior or junior is not clear)
• Some say even the Basset family did not want ‘that darn thing’
• The inscription is misleading suggesting the whole county of Cornwall paid for its construction.
• If local tinners did subscribe, it was under duress
• Some allege local tinners were even coerced to attend the laying of the foundation stone.
• Carn Brea monument used to have a wooden staircase that could be accessed by the public for a penny. It burnt down.
• The Carn Brea monument is now a World Heritage Site
• These days the main debate over Carn Brea monument seems to be whether or not is a aesthetically pleasing.
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Dolcoathguy

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CARN BREA monument: can you help?
Posted: 06/08/2012 07:33:32
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Keep-it-wheal: Good bit of research!
Whatever its origins, it has become a recognisable symbol for Camborne / Redruth and I believe most people would prefer it to stay.

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