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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author crystals in UK
sparty_lea

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Joined: 26/04/2007
Location: Weardale

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crystals in UK
Posted: 23/12/2007 19:37:48
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It wasn't Ben who was asking about where to go Jagman,
the OP is long ago scared off
Laugh
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ben88800

Joined: 14/06/2007

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crystals in UK
Posted: 23/12/2007 20:32:53
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jagman

I Came to this website to find more infomation about the mines which is an interest which goes hand in hand with the mineral collecting but when push comes to shove the mines are more important to me than the minerals so when i am out collecting i will always be thinking about what affect my actions will have for others eg if i see an feature which is interesting for all say calcite flowstone or crystals in a vugh which are totally unobtainable because they are to fragile i would not even think about haveing a go at then because i would rather they where there for others to enjoy. even if a mineral was obtainable if by removeing it that would be all the material like it in that part of the mine or that was a good example of how the mineral formed insitue i would not remove them.

Also alll the infomation i have gained from this website NONE has been used to find minerals. I Use this website to find infomation to help build my own database of mines across the north of England which does include a section on the minerals which are found at a site but more importantly for me includes maps of the sites locations, features on the surface which i have spent a lot of time out in the field makeing sure they are right. it also includes any infomation on the mine that i can find such as histories production figures etc i hope this is all some thing you can relate to that is the need to gather all this data before ithe sites are lost so the people in the years to come can see what was there maybe this infomation could be used to help presserve a site.

You are right i do not agree to blindly giveing out what can be sensative infomation to people that are unknow to you that is something which i do not even do, only when i know someone and know what there collecting skills are like will i even discuss where i have been collecting with them.

But what i was getting peeved off about was the way in which that person was dealt with the thing to do would have been to say sorry this site is not for you we do not condone mineral collecting here why not try www......... rather than the totally hostile responce the person got. then what realy tipped me over the edge was the comment that lables all collecters as scum and the responces that followed that where verging on the edge of personal attacks to those people i would say do you know me personally or any other collecters i mean know them well rather than people you just hate with out knowing them if you do not who are you to judge me

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If its big and shiney and comes from a dirty hole i like it
IP: 81.159.205.18
carnkie

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Location: camborne, cornwall

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crystals in UK
Posted: 23/12/2007 21:06:48
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Ben I have uploaded a document which I hoped would put this topic in perspective. It only applies to Cornwall of course. Colin Bristow is a much respected geologist and he has quite a comprehesive mineral collection and a strong interest in preservation. Smile

Regards

Malcolm
IP: 88.105.233.176
ben88800

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crystals in UK
Posted: 23/12/2007 21:09:12
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Hello Malcolm

I did see that article and i read it with interest i would hope that the rest of you that are reading this would also read this article. it may have ben written about cornwall but could be about any where

Cheers



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If its big and shiney and comes from a dirty hole i like it
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jagman

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crystals in UK
Posted: 23/12/2007 21:14:08
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In the nicest possible way Ben I refer you back to this post-

ben88800 wrote:

so because the mines are no longer working the minerals in them should be left to decay even if they are of international importance


That is a direct inference that you consider the minerals more important.
I have been careful not to make personal comments about any posteron this thread.
However I will cite one particular instance (to save massive quantities of examples) of a certain metal mine in North Cumbria that I have been visiting for many years and consider one of my favourites.
Mineral collectors have long used it as a place to hunt for specimens, over a period of about 2 years one hopper was picked away at until it was destabilised sufficiently for the hopper side to give way. Now the whole side of the hopper and the vein it sits in has collapsed into the tramway on the bottom level of the mine. This has dammed up water to about 2 feet behind it and much more timberwork now sits in that water.
Its this kind of destruction that many of us object too.
I'm sure that the cause of the damage was many different collectors chipping away a little more over a long period.
To top it off the samples being collecter would have been blast damaged anyway.
Yes I am all in favour of mines being recorded for posterity, but no I am not in favour of removing lumps of them for collections. Especially when they are irretrievably damaged by doing so.

As for judging you, nothing personal Ben (after all, as you point out, I don't even know you) and if I'm entirely honest it doesn't worry me if you are offended (I'm not a nice guy, sue me). Most mines will eventually be reclaimed by virtue of gravity but I will expend much of my effort in delaying that as much as possible. Many of us here have witnessed the aftermath of mineral collectors (I appreciate not all are the same) and will treat those causing damage with hostility.

As Sparty Lea points out, it was another poster who was looking for tips, I apologise for the inaccuracy
Blush
If the attitude creates animosity from mineral collectors toward me then I am unrepentant for that too, sorry but thats just the way it is......
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Jimbo

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Location: Ooop North

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crystals in UK
Posted: 23/12/2007 21:17:28
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ben88800 wrote:

jagman

what realy tipped me over the edge was the comment that lables all collecters as scum


As I have already pointed out several times, the 'scum' comment was directed at the lowlife who break into mines and trash/pillage them in the name of mineral collecting (try reading all of my posts more carefully). You keep bringing this up as being directed at all collectors but it would only apply to you or any other collector reading this thread if they were responsible for such acts wanton destruction & if that were the case then no one here would show an ounce of tolerance or sympathy.

It would be nice to see some of this data that you have been gathering on the mines across the north of England as this site is the ideal place to upload such information. It would also give you a lot more respect with other members of this forum if you were to share such information with us all (& also go along way towards us getting to know you better) Big Grin

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It's grim ooop North!
IP: 195.93.21.71 Edited: 24/12/2007 00:26:59 by Jimbo
carnkie

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crystals in UK
Posted: 23/12/2007 22:52:51
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jagman wrote:

In the nicest possible way Ben I refer you back to this post-

ben88800 wrote:

so because the mines are no longer working the minerals in them should be left to decay even if they are of international importance


This a perfectly valid opinion even if you don't agree with it. I will add that I agree with the rest of your post about people trashing mines and just to add that the circle is now being completed for the second time.

Smile
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ben88800

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mineral collectors
Posted: 23/12/2007 23:24:02
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jagman

when you quoted me i was not saying the minerals where more important i was saying why should the minerals not be collected. also when you said you wanted the mines to remain undisturned what about every time you go down them when you are underground things become disturbed no matter what you do then this leads me onto another topic i have seen on this forum what about the digging parties that are organised here does that not contradict the disclaimer on this website that could be interperated to say that nothing what so ever can be moved while underground thats in section 3 which some one quoted before. you have also said that the specimens would be blast damaged how do you know this if you did not see the specimens i have collected minerals from the piles of rock that have been left behind at the face when the last rounds where fired and have come away with perfect undamaged crystals so because they where near to where the explosives where does not mean they get damaged.

if you dont care about offending me why on earth should i care about what you have to say. would it be worth haveing an area on this site where explorers and collecters can come together and air there concerns so we can both open a dialoge so in the future maybe we could all get on a bit better than we are now

jimbo i have read all of you post carefully when they have been posted and only once i have come across you back tracking on your scum comment. the last time that i mentioned that comment i was using it as the reason to why i started to add my comments to this thread. i had been working on putting the infomation i have into a format that would be sutible for this site but after this it has left me less inclined to add this to this site after the reaction we have had.

right a question for all would you like to see all the mineral collecters leave this website and deprive you of what we can bring

carnkie is right we are all entrenched on are own side we need some thing or some one to break this stalemate

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If its big and shiney and comes from a dirty hole i like it
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LAP

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Joined: 04/02/2007
Location: Somewhere between Carnforth/Carn-Ffyrdd, and Milnthorpe.

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 01:02:58
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I personally don't like the idea of collecting formations/minerals from anywhere underground. I admit to taking the odd bit of copper of a mine tip, but would never take anything of great value or inside the workings. What I also find a bit annoying is when people take massive artifacts from mines (wagons and BEVs) paint them like refreshers(the sweet) packets, and stick them outside a museum in keswick. I say that if you are going to remove something from a mine then be it for the artifact's well being and preservation, and not for a single collection which has no existance outside that persons house or whateva. There's no point in taking something of great value and sticking it on a shelf in your front room, when hundereds of others could be seeing it in its original enviroment.
The slate museum of north wales is of course correctly a home to artifacts of all sorts, though because the artiffacts were taken there for preservatory perposes and not just for someone's well being. As is the mining museum at keswick to an extent, though many of the artifacts could have been better off at their original place of existance (namley the wagons from honister etc)

This is however not my message to mineral collectors, as on the whole it's a hobbie that involvs the examination of minerals and their collecting from wherever that might be. There is nothing wrong with chipping open the odd rock from a quarry tip in order to find a new minerals. However, this doesn't mean to say that it's correct to break off underground speediothems(spelling??) or bits of secondary copper mineralisation that could have taken 100 years to from.
Though I'm sure most mineral collectors have the goodness not to do that, especially you lot including "ben88800"

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Salud mat an traoù ganeoc'h ma kamarad ? O ! Ha nedeleg laouen ha bloavezh mat !
IP: 90.241.188.12
LAP

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 01:22:00
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Barney wrote:

ben88800 wrote:

not when we have the permision of the owner legaly speaking how many of you have trespassed to get to a mine


Your mistake here Ben is that many land owners think they own a mine, there have been many proven cases disproving this.
Just because it is on their land doesnt mean a thing, they own the surface and nothing to any great depth. A landowner can give you permission to approach the portal if its on his land if the land is not under the C.R.O.W.
The mines and quarries acts (of various years) details this.


To us explorers it's a well known fact.
Mine-owners dislike anyone entering their mine (most times) unless they give the total impression that they're professsional (even this doesn't always work!!) So sometimes it's the only way, and to many landowners it's the prospert of daring youngsters (or adults for that matter) who don't know what they're doing, entering the mine, getting seriously injured, then suing the landowner - that stop them from allowing people in. What they often don't realise is that there are people out there properly equipped, and experienced with mine-exploring that are not likely to steal stuff, leave old sleeping bags and wrappers underground, and get injured.

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Salud mat an traoù ganeoc'h ma kamarad ? O ! Ha nedeleg laouen ha bloavezh mat !
IP: 90.241.188.12
Vanoord

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 15:00:51
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Tweak: I've deleted a couple of posts that were getting a little bit too personal...

If I may bring this back towards where we were, perhaps I might ask the question of whether any of the following are considered acceptable?

- removing material from spoil heaps
- removing loose material from inside, ie picking things up
- removing material from the walls with the aid of a hammer
- altering / changing the fabric of the mine in order to remove material, eg removing an ore hopper

Basically: where should the line of acceptability be drawn?

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Filling space until a new signature comes along...
IP: 81.139.57.115 Edited: 24/12/2007 15:01:42 by Vanoord
ben88800

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Posted: 24/12/2007 15:08:15
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Hello vanoord

I have removed minerals from spoil heaps and so have a couple of the posters on this topic so can we agree that it is acceptable

i do pick up loose minerals in the mines which has also been mentioned by another poster on this site as something they have done so again can we agree that this is acceptable.

yes i have on rare occasions used a hammer to remove minerals but this is very rare. and may not be to every ones likeing

the last piont you raised changing the fabric of the mine to recover material is totaly unacseptable to me



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If its big and shiney and comes from a dirty hole i like it
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Heb

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 15:17:17
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What I also find a bit annoying is when people take massive artifacts from mines (wagons and BEVs) paint them like refreshers(the sweet) packets, and stick them outside a museum in keswick. I say that if you are going to remove something from a mine then be it for the artifact's well being and preservation,

I've answered a similar comment to this before, the wagons ,BEV & 'refresher' packet (explosive truck?) were BOUGHT from the owners of Grove Rake when it closed. Regular visitors to G.R. after closure will remember stacks of tubs cut up for scrap (even the headframe went), so if buying them rather than seeing them cut up is not preservation, I don't know what is.
Not really wanting to 'wade in' to what is a different (& entertaining!) argument, just wanted to clear that up.

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ben88800

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 15:41:44
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Hello lap

Can you clear some thing up for me from your first post. is it ok to remove minerals from tips as long as they are of a poor quality but when they start to become something that is of a good quality and might be considered to be something the is worth something you would leave them behind. i just find it strange that because a mineral might be worth money it should be left behind to be destroyed i do not collect thing for the money side of the hobby i would rather trade minerals with other collecters than sell them.

I was also getting a hint of dislike for Mr ***** in that post he has gained alot of his tubs from graverake when that place closed so they can not be labled as stolen because he paid the owners for them and now they are his he can paint them whatever color he likes even pink if it took his fancy. i know ian ***** quite well but i have never been underground with him because i agree with you about the way he collects artifacts but may i remind you Ian is a mine explorer or one of you that does not damage a place he is NOT a mineral collecter.

There are mine owners land owners out there that will allow access to a site if you ask them some have been know to say that it is ok just as long as they dont know what we are getting upto so they can not be held responcable, most land owners will take a dislike to people that come across there private land or over planted feild with out a word these are the ones that are labled as trespassers and give the rest of use a bad name.

I do find it quite funny that i can be got at by some member sof this site for breaking the "rules of the site" but they go out and break them as well


Moderation: Edited personal details out in case it causes offence Wink

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If its big and shiney and comes from a dirty hole i like it
IP: 81.139.57.115 Edited: 24/12/2007 15:57:51 by (moderator)
carnkie

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 16:00:00
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Many of the sites (including many old dump sites) in Cornwall are designated SSSIs and in theory nothing can be removed without permission of English Nature. I emphasise in theory beause I'm not sure how this is enforceable. Roy mentioned in an earlier post about Cligga Head which comes under this category. IP: 88.105.254.196 Edited: 24/12/2007 16:02:55 by carnkie
royfellows

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 16:21:33
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I have been reading the posts here with some disbelief, so feel it appropriate to 'stick my oar in'.
I have heard tails, many which I know to be true, of fisticuffs on the Caldbecks, telephone death threats, and just about every kind of aggro.
And good as gold, what is it always about?
Bloody minerals
I am a mine explorer, historical researcher, and budding author, and have nothing to do with this apart from a few specimens that I have been given.
I wonder why?
This is my first and last post on this thread.


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'There's a lot of activity for a disused mine!' - Bond in 'A view to a kill'
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Barney

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 17:13:36
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ben88800 wrote:



I do find it quite funny that i can be got at by some member sof this site for breaking the "rules of the site" but they go out and break them as well



What rules are they then Ben, can you expand a little more?

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C'mon
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Barney

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 17:15:31
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Vanoord wrote:


- removing material from the walls with the aid of a hammer


This could be very interesting in Croesor!!! Shocked

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C'mon
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Vanoord

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 17:15:48
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Barney wrote:

ben88800 wrote:



I do find it quite funny that i can be got at by some member sof this site for breaking the "rules of the site" but they go out and break them as well



What rules are they then Ben, can you expand a little more?


Er, these ones: [web link]

3. Preservation of Artifacts & Sites of Historical Interest

3.1. Should you enter any workings, used or dis-used, you agree the following:

3.1.1. You will ensure all reasonable measures to safeguard the mine or workings, used or dis-used, from any damage.

3.1.2. You, and members of your party or party of which you are a member, will under no circumstances leave graffiti.

3.1.3. You will not move or remove any artifact or item from the mine or working.

3.1.4. You will not deliberately dislodge or cause to dislodge any stones or debris, nor will drop or throw any stones or debris over edges or drops.

3.1.5. Formations, natural or otherwise, will be treated with the utmost of respect and under no circumstances whatsoever will be tampered with, removed, or otherwise interfered with.


Wink Flowers

If I'm being picky, I'd suggest that under 3.1.1, we have an obligation to shore up the Cwmorthin adit!

Anyway... "Leave only footprints and take only photographs" is a decent place to start.

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Filling space until a new signature comes along...
IP: 86.140.204.80 Edited: 24/12/2007 17:19:07 by Vanoord
Barney

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crystals in UK
Posted: 24/12/2007 17:18:43
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As i suspected. So, these allegations of rule breaking are based on what?

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C'mon
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