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Mine Exploration Forum

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Author Mining Legacy
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 27/06/2012 09:27:28
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Of course, but this is a mine historian website, and if we don't make a good case for the "good" side of the legacy, then I am pretty sure nobody else will.

--

Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
IP: 94.193.19.239
ICLOK

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Joined: 19/02/2008
Location: Ripley, Derbyshire up North.

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 27/06/2012 20:13:25
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I dont need moral guidance re mining and its impact, having lost family (back in the 1910s & 20s) in coal mine accidents and recent aqaintances due to chest issues and general ill health in the 90s and 2000s.
What I will say is that probably everyone on here knows the human cost of the relics / landscapes and if the truth be said it makes those things all the more important to us as historians, so I agree with Mr Burgess entirely!

As for Virginia, there are regular flights from the uk, I'll supply the placards... Wink

You could pull in the red injuns too! Smile

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As politically correct as a Nuremberg Rally
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droid

Joined: 31/10/2010
Location: Tamworth

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 27/06/2012 20:30:33
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Certainly exploring mines (for pleasure) brings it home how hard it must have been to go there because you had to, with rudimentary lighting/clothing/safety.

IP: 86.20.198.141
simonrail

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Joined: 23/07/2008
Location: Cleveland

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 27/06/2012 20:46:54
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A few years ago I was doing voluntary work at a mining museum when a local aged resident told me how bad times were in the mines, how the workers were exploited and how people should forget such bad old days. In short, the museum was a waste of money.
I asked him if he wanted to see such bad times return, to which he obviously replied "No!"
So I said the best way for such things to be repeated was for people to forget about it and never be reminded. That shut him up!
The legacy of past mining problems ensures that future operations are much less harmful to the environment and people. Yorkshire Potash is bending over backwards to prove its environmental credentials for its future operation; it has to to be able to develop within a national park against biased opposition.


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Yes, I'll have it - what is it?
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Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 27/06/2012 20:55:41
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Industrialisation to create the modern world has a heavy price, unevenly borne. All those who are glad we don't have the inconvenience, death toll and exploitation in this country today would do well to remember that we haven't eliminated it, we have merely displaced it to other places. Out of sight, out of mind?

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ICLOK

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 27/06/2012 22:12:25
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Thats an interesting statement Peter and having just changed jobs is ringing very true for some companies who exported their risk....

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carnkie

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Joined: 07/09/2007
Location: camborne, cornwall

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 04:11:08
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Mining cleanup benefits from Texas A&M expertise
Soil scientist helps develop remediation techniques


COLLEGE STATION – When Atlantic Richfield Co. was tasked with cleaning up a major superfund site it had purchased in Montana, Dr. Frank Hons, a Texas A&M University professor, got a call to assist the company's consultants, Pioneer Technical Services.

Hons, a soil and crop science professor, spent two years leading a Texas A&M team studying revegetation solutions on land impacted by 100 years of copper mining, mineral processing and smelting in the Anaconda, Mont. area.

The Anaconda Copper Co., a driving force and major employer in the region for 100 years, was purchased by the Atlantic Richfield Co. in 1977. With the purchase came the responsibility for cleaning up more than 3,600 acres of mill tailing settling ponds, Hons said.

"The Anaconda Superfund site is the largest in the U.S., because it includes not just the 3,600 acres of tailings ponds, but thousands of acres surrounding the mineral processing and smelting area," he said. "The Environmental Protection Agency and the state of Montana have been working with Atlantic Richfield to reclaim these areas since the mid-1980s."

Over the years, the smelting and processing of copper ore resulted in millions of tons of waste, Hons said. The vast majority of the mill tailings were captured and stored in settling ponds, but part of these materials escaped to the Clark Fork River. Some of these materials were transported 100 miles downstream and were captured in Milltown Reservoir, where they've remained for up to 100 years.

[web link]

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Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 09:00:25
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There are other human activities responsible for devastating the environment, as well as mining. Logging, over-cultivation for food, excessive water extraction for irrigation ... that's three for starters without thinking too hard.

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Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
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carnkie

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 10:25:05
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Peter Burgess wrote:

There are other human activities responsible for devastating the environment, as well as mining. Logging, over-cultivation for food, excessive water extraction for irrigation ... that's three for starters without thinking too hard.


I'm aware of that but the title of the thread is Mining Legacy. I was actually trying to put a positive spin on it by quoting the article. And just for the record some on here have an exagerated idea of their own importance if they think my posts to be offering moral guidance. I would never be that presumptious.

--

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
IP: 89.241.104.99 Edited: 28/06/2012 10:26:04 by carnkie
Peter Burgess

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Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 10:30:20
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I was putting the problems caused by mining into perspective, which the media often fail to do. Overfishing is another one, BTW.

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Hé ! Ki kapcsolva le a villanyt ?
IP: 94.193.19.239
carnkie

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 10:49:46
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I agree one has to careful regarding the media as we all know thay often have their own agenda. On questions of deforestaion, desertification, overfishing, etc, when ever possible it's obviously better to use reliable sources such as peer reviewed articles in journals if possible or, if not, other reliable sources. The problem with journal articles is often the restricted access and the ridiculous price they charge for a copy.

I came across this problem quite recently whilst doing some rearch into the connection between coal mine explosions and weather systems.

--

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
IP: 89.241.104.99
dwarrowdelf

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Joined: 09/02/2011
Location: Lost in Cwmorthin...and Oakeley too !!

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 15:47:46
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Not wishing to gloss over the human cost or any other negative aspect of mining, my observations of the impact of industries like slate and heathstone quarrying on the environment have led me to the opinion that these activites at least, have not had the completely negative environmental impact that so many people seem to expect. There are always species of animals and plants, some of them rare or potentially endangered, which will expoit such envionments sucessfully.
For example: -
I have recently observed a pair of choughs in a slate quarry above Blaenau Ffestiniog: they appeared to be nesting in a worked out chamber: - perfect habitat for this rare bird. (and that was not the only pair I saw that day). Also a pair of peregrine falcons at Penarth slate quarry, who did not seem at all pleased to see me!

The Godstone hearthstone mines, I am very familair with, in Surrey have become an important site for hibernating bats of a number of different species, and in the remote and decaying lesser known hearthstone workings in the area I have personally seen evidence of burrowing animals. The environment immediatly surrounding these remote quarries is now a wonderful overgrown habitat supporting a diverse population of invertebrates and other animals, together with many plant species, while the hollows where the ground has slumped have no doubt helped to add further diversity to this ecosytem.


--

'no one dares to seek the shafts and treasuries down in the deep places: they are drowned in water- or in a shadow of fear.'
IP: 93.97.118.21 Edited: 28/06/2012 16:02:34 by dwarrowdelf
droid

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 16:09:00
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I agree.

Rare species on plants on metal mine hillocks has already been discussed but many abandoned quarries are SSSIs.

I'd suggest that the main reason for this is that they are rarely visited by humans. Those that are (usually by climbists) are often very carefully controlled.
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dwarrowdelf

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 16:09:50
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carnkie wrote:

I agree one has to careful regarding the media as we all know thay often have their own agenda. On questions of deforestaion, desertification, overfishing, etc, when ever possible it's obviously better to use reliable sources such as peer reviewed articles in journals if possible or, if not, other reliable sources. The problem with journal articles is often the restricted access and the ridiculous price they charge for a copy.

I came across this problem quite recently whilst doing some rearch into the connection between coal mine explosions and weather systems.



By the way Carnkie,I am rather interested in your reference above re: Coal mine explosions and weather systems. Is it something to do with air pressure by any chance?
Maybe it would be worth starting another thread. Smartass

--

'no one dares to seek the shafts and treasuries down in the deep places: they are drowned in water- or in a shadow of fear.'
IP: 93.97.118.21 Edited: 28/06/2012 16:11:11 by dwarrowdelf
dwarrowdelf

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 16:52:59
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droid wrote:

I agree.

Rare species on plants on metal mine hillocks has already been discussed but many abandoned quarries are SSSIs.

I'd suggest that the main reason for this is that they are rarely visited by humans. Those that are (usually by climbists) are often very carefully controlled.


The presence of choughs and peregrines in slate quarries appears to be directly related to the past slate extraction as these birds like exposed cliff faces. Peregrines are actually fairly tolerant of human presence as witnessed by their increasing numbers in our towns and cities, but how wonderful to see them in a remote and very "natural" looking environment. (choughs can apparently become fairly "tame" as well)
Have also seen ravens around remote quarry buildings

--

'no one dares to seek the shafts and treasuries down in the deep places: they are drowned in water- or in a shadow of fear.'
IP: 93.97.118.21 Edited: 28/06/2012 17:00:00 by dwarrowdelf
carnkie

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 17:17:12
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dwarrowdelf wrote:

carnkie wrote:

I agree one has to careful regarding the media as we all know thay often have their own agenda. On questions of deforestaion, desertification, overfishing, etc, when ever possible it's obviously better to use reliable sources such as peer reviewed articles in journals if possible or, if not, other reliable sources. The problem with journal articles is often the restricted access and the ridiculous price they charge for a copy.

I came across this problem quite recently whilst doing some rearch into the connection between coal mine explosions and weather systems.



By the way Carnkie,I am rather interested in your reference above re: Coal mine explosions and weather systems. Is it something to do with air pressure by any chance?
Maybe it would be worth starting another thread. Smartass


it's bit complicated but the simplistic answer is yes, passage of low pressure systems, regarding methane and variations in vapour pressure involving coal dust.

There actually hasn't been that much research done on the subject and certainly ideas changed rapidly during the 19th century. The problem with backtracking to then is obtaining detailed weather information. Of course not all of the many explosions then were weather related.

Cutting this a bit short as I realise it's off topic, There is a very detailed paper, Fluctuations in barometric pressure as a contributory factor to gas explosions in South African mines, by C.J. Fauconnier. It uses the explosion at the Hlobane Collliery in 1983 as a case history. There seems little doubt that a quite rapid variation in pressure was a major factor.

--

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
IP: 92.28.219.9 Edited: 28/06/2012 17:20:55 by carnkie
dwarrowdelf

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 17:53:31
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carnkie wrote:

dwarrowdelf wrote:

carnkie wrote:

I agree one has to careful regarding the media as we all know thay often have their own agenda. On questions of deforestaion, desertification, overfishing, etc, when ever possible it's obviously better to use reliable sources such as peer reviewed articles in journals if possible or, if not, other reliable sources. The problem with journal articles is often the restricted access and the ridiculous price they charge for a copy.

I came across this problem quite recently whilst doing some rearch into the connection between coal mine explosions and weather systems.



By the way Carnkie,I am rather interested in your reference above re: Coal mine explosions and weather systems. Is it something to do with air pressure by any chance?
Maybe it would be worth starting another thread. Smartass


it's bit complicated but the simplistic answer is yes, passage of low pressure systems, regarding methane and variations in vapour pressure involving coal dust.

There actually hasn't been that much research done on the subject and certainly ideas changed rapidly during the 19th century. The problem with backtracking to then is obtaining detailed weather information. Of course not all of the many explosions then were weather related.

Cutting this a bit short as I realise it's off topic, There is a very detailed paper, Fluctuations in barometric pressure as a contributory factor to gas explosions in South African mines, by C.J. Fauconnier. It uses the explosion at the Hlobane Collliery in 1983 as a case history. There seems little doubt that a quite rapid variation in pressure was a major factor.


Interesting!
Have been reading various online documents about the Gesford coal mine disaster of 1934, one of the most tragic events in our mining history. I seem to remember mention of heavy rain roughly around the time of the explosion, indicative of the presence of a low pressure weather system. May or may not have been an ingredient in the developments leading up to the explosion? No doubt a complicated topic, which apart from sad legacies is probably threatening to lead off topic


Off Topic

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'no one dares to seek the shafts and treasuries down in the deep places: they are drowned in water- or in a shadow of fear.'
IP: 93.97.118.21 Edited: 28/06/2012 18:18:17 by dwarrowdelf
oildrum

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 18:38:33
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carnkie wrote:

dwarrowdelf wrote:

carnkie wrote:

I agree one has to careful regarding the media as we all know thay often have their own agenda. On questions of deforestaion, desertification, overfishing, etc, when ever possible it's obviously better to use reliable sources such as peer reviewed articles in journals if possible or, if not, other reliable sources. The problem with journal articles is often the restricted access and the ridiculous price they charge for a copy.

I came across this problem quite recently whilst doing some rearch into the connection between coal mine explosions and weather systems.



By the way Carnkie,I am rather interested in your reference above re: Coal mine explosions and weather systems. Is it something to do with air pressure by any chance?
Maybe it would be worth starting another thread. Smartass


it's bit complicated but the simplistic answer is yes, passage of low pressure systems, regarding methane and variations in vapour pressure involving coal dust.

There actually hasn't been that much research done on the subject and certainly ideas changed rapidly during the 19th century. The problem with backtracking to then is obtaining detailed weather information. Of course not all of the many explosions then were weather related.

Cutting this a bit short as I realise it's off topic, There is a very detailed paper, Fluctuations in barometric pressure as a contributory factor to gas explosions in South African mines, by C.J. Fauconnier. It uses the explosion at the Hlobane Collliery in 1983 as a case history. There seems little doubt that a quite rapid variation in pressure was a major factor.


The effect of rapid changes in barometric pressure was well known in coal mines. The M&Q Act 1954 Section 60 states that " a barometer must be provided in a conspicuous place", with officials required to read it before going underground (and often when returning to the surface) and record it on the relevant M&Q reports. Rapid changes in pressure were also phoned through to collieries from the Met Office, with the info then passed onto underground officials.

Off Topic

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carnkie

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 19:50:12
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They were aware of the effect in the 19th century but the nature of the effect was disputed. In fact it still is. What is the nature of the synoptic conditions that actually can cause the problem. I.E. is it when the pressure is at it's's lowest or at a time interval afterwards.

And the variations of vapour pressure is another area of dispute. The was a very interesting paper written the Geographical review, "Atmospheric conditions and Explosions in Coal Mines" by C.B. McIntosh in 1957 which is very good on the subject.

The regulations were wisely brought in because by then the evidence was quite strongly pointing towards a connection even if it still wasn't fully understood.

A couple of the papers written on the subject at the end of the 19th century have some bizarre explanations and of course the interesting and tragic aspect is how many of the disasters may have been connected to the synoptics at the time.

Off Topic

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The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
IP: 92.28.219.9 Edited: 28/06/2012 19:55:04 by carnkie
Trewillan

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Mining Legacy
Posted: 28/06/2012 23:46:21
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Rapid changes in pressure were also phoned through to collieries from the Met Office.

That's interesting. But does it still happen? The Met Office now being commercially minded and charging money for information that was previously freely available.
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