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Mine Exploration Forum

Author Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
royfellows

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Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 05/01/2021 17:54:56
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I have just uploaded this paper which I wrote following a thread on UKC. Due to the design of the site, I have had to tag it to a mine, but here is the link anyway.

I hope that its useful.

https://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/AARON-Mine/Lithium-Ion-and-Battery-Safety.pdf

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BertyBasset

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Joined: 13/12/2007
Location: Caernarfon, North Wales

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 05/01/2021 18:54:09
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Yep, should help me not to burn my shed down. Nice one Roy. IP: 86.162.143.146
SimonRL

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 05/01/2021 19:42:11
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PDFs not specific to a mine can be uploaded to personal files Roy, just click on 'Personal Files' under 'My AditNow'.

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royfellows

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 05/01/2021 19:54:11
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Ha, I had forgotten that.
Just moved it.

https://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Personal-Album-128/Lithium-Ion-and-Battery-Safety.pdf

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Down and beyond

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 06/01/2021 06:35:52
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Interesting read has taught me a lot , I shall have to check my book for my battery rating on my wowtac a2s I carry it for emergencies i need to buy a spare battery really I’ll keep it wrapped up in clingfilm in the Darren drum when I do .

Thanks Roy Thumbs Up

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cantclimbtom

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 06/01/2021 10:08:24
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Thank you. Learned a lot also. Not only for lights.

I'm pretty cautious of Li ion (and the danger of whiskers of Li growing like tiny stalactites between electrodes) since the spate of laptop fires some years back and phone fires when the technology was newer. Hope that doesn't become a problem for traction batteries being made for cars these days, that'd be a big fire. Also I know of a story of house fire where someone had forgotten and gone to work leaving some Duracell AA rechargeable unsupervised (so my caution extends to other battery types too).

Lithium ion definitely doesn't sound a good place to make cheap shortcuts. Despite cost of brand markup I'm sticking with genuine Makita 18v batteries even though you can get copies for 1/3 the cost

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lozz

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 06/01/2021 11:05:46
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cantclimbtom wrote:

I'm pretty cautious of Li ion (and the danger of whiskers of Li growing like tiny stalactites between electrodes)


Electrically conductive "whiskers" aren't limited to Li either, tin whiskers were (and maybe still are) a major culprit in the electronics industry, one well noted problem was the growth of these whiskers inside transistors of the germanium type, most commonly shorting one of the transistors internal connections to the metal casing of the transistor which in some circuits was connected to signal ground, the net result was no workie, some of these transistors (small signal radio frequency types) had a circuit ground connection to the metal case (the screen connection) a trick with those types was to cut the transistors screen lead to resume service back to normal, with the small power types the transistors case was often fixed to a heat sink the heatsink in most cases being connected to circuit ground...same result no workie.

I often wonder if some of the tin I mined ended up in a piece of electronics I was fixing later....

Lozz.
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cantclimbtom

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 06/01/2021 16:28:03
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"tin whiskers" sound like the name of a band!

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Wormster

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 11:38:57
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Roy,
Having checked with a few of our battery experts I notice that when you are talking about cell identification: Sanyo NCR18650Ga you state it has "Nickel Cobalt" chemistry. Those prefixes are a manufacturer in house code and could mean anything, the cell chemistry will be lithium ion of some form.

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royfellows

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 13:43:07
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NCR = NCA (LiNiCoAlO2), obviously all Lithium Ion, that's what the papers about.

Bit short of time now, but turned this up quickly:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fYjDxxCJXfm2wdpGWCaOUGq8V8TOEgsnplHQa4YQpRQ/htmlview

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lozz

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 13:47:03
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Experts.....Know more and more about less and less until eventually they know all there is to know about f**ck all.

Lozz.
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Wormster

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 16:22:43
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lozz wrote:

Experts.....Know more and more about less and less until eventually they know all there is to know about f**ck all.

Lozz.


HMMM some of experts are down to the molicule level when it comes to cell chemistry!!!!

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Wormster

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 16:30:24
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Here's what's insde an average 18650 cell, snapped off the nitice board at work.......



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royfellows

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 16:54:13
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In my paper I have only considered quality brands, indeed Sanyo - Panasonic are the OEM manufacturers of most of these cells. I have not even considered such as Zipfire, Taserfire, or similar rubbish. Obviously, such outfits, wont call them "manufacturers", they probably are recycling used or OOD laptop cells anyway. They would indeed call their 'products' anything, and while they are on for good measure, rate them at anything. 10,000 mAh, no problem.
How much would you like it to be?

Obviously what I have written above is somewhat tongue in cheek, but do wonder if I should have included some warning about this stuff?

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lozz

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 17:04:38
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Wormster wrote:

lozz wrote:

Experts.....Know more and more about less and less until eventually they know all there is to know about f**ck all.

Lozz.


HMMM some of experts are down to the molicule level when it comes to cell chemistry!!!!


Molecule would make more sense....

Lozz.
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TheBogieman

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 17:22:07
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Excellent paper there, Roy. Very good, useful information...
Thank you!
Smile

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royfellows

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 17:34:01
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Thanks for kind remarks.
I should say that it was peer reviewed, at what I would describe as "a high level".

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lozz

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 17:48:31
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royfellows wrote:

Thanks for kind remarks.
I should say that it was peer reviewed, at what I would describe as "a high level".


They missed the + live then.

Lozz.
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royfellows

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Lithium Ion Batteries, what cavers need to know.
Posted: 07/01/2021 18:39:15
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lozz wrote:

royfellows wrote:

Thanks for kind remarks.
I should say that it was peer reviewed, at what I would describe as "a high level".


They missed the + live then.

Lozz.


High (+)
Never mind.

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