Mine exploration, photographs and mining history for mine explorers, industrial archaeologists, researchers and historians Mine explorer and mining history videos on YouTube Connect with other mine explorers on Facebook
Tip: do not include 'mine' or 'quarry', search by name e.g. 'cwmorthin', use 'Sounds like search' if unsure of spelling

Advanced Search
'Sounds like search'
Quick a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
Tip: narrow down your search by typing more than one word and selecting 'Search for all words' or 'Exact search'

Search for any word
Search for all words
Exact search
Tip: narrow down your search by typing more than one word and selecting 'Search for all words' or 'Exact search'

Search for any word
Search for all words
Exact search

Mine Exploration Forum

Jump to page << < 1 2 > >>
Author Lead ingot from wreck
Devlin

Joined: 13/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 13/09/2020 15:02:28
Reply |  Quote
Hi,
I am new to the forum. I have a query concerning lead ingots found on a wreck at the island of Mauritius. The wreck is from the 17th century, either 1615(VOC ship) or 1643(English Indiaman) as identification is still ongoing. The ingots have what appears to be the makers mark stamped. It reads PONTPRAN MINES and has P.L in the center. I suspect its from a mine in England or Wales but Google search have yielded no such place-name. If anyone can provide any information I will be grateful. Thank you.
Kind regards
Deva
IP: 102.118.74.90
lozz

Joined: 03/08/2012
Location: Cornwall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 13/09/2020 16:29:44
Reply |  Quote
Long shot but could that be PONTPEAN (France)

Lozz.
IP: 86.163.245.236
Devlin

Joined: 13/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 13/09/2020 16:39:22
Reply |  Quote
Hi Lozz,
Thank you for your reply. I did consider PONTPEAN but the period of this French lead mine activation does not match the time period of the wreck. I will shortly send photos of the lead mark.
Regards
Deva
IP: 102.118.74.90
Devlin

Joined: 13/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 13/09/2020 20:22:35
Reply |  Quote
Photo in my personal album. Thank you. IP: 102.118.74.90
legendrider

Avatar of legendrider

Joined: 13/07/2014
Location: Darlington

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 14/09/2020 14:06:36
Reply |  Quote
For those less familiar with 17th C economics, VOC was the Dutch East India Company (Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie) - the first conglomerate, formed in 1602 and dissolved in 1799.

MARK

--

festina lente IP: 81.100.181.10
ChrisJC

Avatar of ChrisJC

Joined: 13/10/2007
Location: Northants

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 14/09/2020 14:55:32
Reply |  Quote
Is there not a missing letter (judging from the spacing) - PO?NTPRAN

I suggest the letter I would fit quite well.

Chris.
IP: 45.143.120.91
Devlin

Joined: 13/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 14/09/2020 17:32:07
Reply |  Quote
Hello Mark,
Thank you. Mauritius was occupied by the Dutch VOC from 1638 and 1710. VOC ships and occasionally English East Indiaman stopped here. Lead was one of the items that was traded by the Europeans for spices etc. in India and the Far East, I suppose as there were no lead mines in the Netherlands they would have imported the lead ingots from England or France. However I suspect this wreck to be an English vessel wrecked in 1643.
Regards
Deva
IP: 102.118.14.21
Devlin

Joined: 13/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 14/09/2020 17:33:57
Reply |  Quote
Thank you Chris. Yes a possibility worth investigating.

Regards
Deva
IP: 102.118.14.21
legendrider

Avatar of legendrider

Joined: 13/07/2014
Location: Darlington

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 14/09/2020 18:47:40
Reply |  Quote
Just winging it a bit here, maybe the legend PO?NTPRAN is a multiple abbreviation like you used to see on old coins (FID:DEF:IND:IMP) etc

The central motif P = Plumbum? L=50 (lb???)

Someone like Peter Claughton might have the depth of knowledge to make a more educated assessment

MARK

--

festina lente IP: 81.100.181.10
Paul Marvin

Avatar of Paul Marvin

Joined: 29/10/2012
Location: Derbyshire

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 14/09/2020 20:14:30
Reply |  Quote
legendrider wrote:

Just winging it a bit here, maybe the legend PO?NTPRAN is a multiple abbreviation like you used to see on old coins (FID:DEF:IND:IMP) etc

The central motif P = Plumbum? L=50 (lb???)

Someone like Peter Claughton might have the depth of knowledge to make a more educated assessment

MARK


Some good thinking going on there !

--

"I Dont Know Where I am Going, But When I Get There I will Know Where I am"
IP: 5.62.43.162
legendrider

Avatar of legendrider

Joined: 13/07/2014
Location: Darlington

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 14/09/2020 20:35:48
Reply |  Quote
Thanks Paul Thumb Up

I unexpectedly found 10 milliseconds spare this afty Big Grin

its an interesting topic, besides

MARK

--

festina lente IP: 81.100.181.10
AR

Avatar of AR

Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Knot far from Knotlow in the middle of the Peak District

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 14/09/2020 20:51:03
Reply |  Quote
The Netherlands were the main continental point of export for British lead, at least for the Pennine orefields - I'm less sure about the western orefields, but if their produce was mostly ending up with London merchants then Rotterdam would have been the likely next destination.

Lynn Willies is another person who might have some suggestions about where this ingot came from, he's had an interest in shipwreck lead finds in the past.

Edit - a thought about a date of 1643, this was the height of the English Civil War and there would have been significant disruption to trade from all orefields at this point. This may have a bearing on where was able to export lead at the time?

--

Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
IP: 80.247.31.250 Edited: 14/09/2020 21:00:50 by AR
Devlin

Joined: 13/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 15/09/2020 13:11:11
Reply |  Quote
Thank you. The plural tense of mines would probably indicate more than one mine in that particular area all belonging to one owner. Just a guess.
In the French language it would have been MINES DE PONTPRAN.

Regards
Deva
IP: 102.118.14.46
Devlin

Joined: 13/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 15/09/2020 13:17:30
Reply |  Quote
Thank you. If anyone has a photo of a stamp mark from the 17c please share.

Regards
Deva
IP: 102.118.14.46
Devlin

Joined: 13/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 15/09/2020 16:19:07
Reply |  Quote
It could be MINAS instead of MINES. There were lead mines in Spain exploited from ancient times. IP: 102.118.14.46
lynnwillies

Joined: 16/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 16/09/2020 09:21:12
Reply |  Quote
More data needed: full dimensions and photos with a scale; weight is important - bathroom scales are convenient for this.
What size is the circular mark? I have only seen one example of this type of mark - it was about the diameter of a one penny coin and was on one (only) of the St Bartholomew's Ledge Ingots (Scilly) and now in St Mary's Museum there. A monastic issuer of the mark has been suggested. Wessex Archaeology have done a report.

Narrowing it down to a mine is unlikely - but lead isotope ratios may indicate a source region

Details to me at lynnwillies at hotmail.com would be useful.

We have a substantial research collection of ingots at Peak District Mining Museum

IP: 80.189.208.42 Edited: 18/09/2020 09:13:03 by lynnwillies
royfellows

Avatar of royfellows

Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 16/09/2020 10:37:32
Reply |  Quote
LynnWillies, Welcome to aditnow.
I bet you dont know me, but we have met a few times.

I hope that we see more of you on here. You will be a valued contributor.

--

'' as rare as a Cwmystwyth padlock''
IP: 88.108.15.81
Devlin

Joined: 13/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 16/09/2020 12:58:17
Reply |  Quote
Hello Lynn. Thank you for the interest.
The dimensions in cms are : Base 53 by 12
Top 50 by 9
Height 8.5 (slanted).
The ingots are in a museum storage. I have several photos of the items but I need permission first from the curator and archaeologist before uploading.

Regards
Deva
IP: 102.118.39.136
AR

Avatar of AR

Joined: 07/11/2007
Location: Knot far from Knotlow in the middle of the Peak District

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 16/09/2020 16:55:24
Reply |  Quote
Hi Lynn, good to see you on Aditnow. I'll try and do a rough calculation of the weight based on the dimensions given.

I'd suggest not putting your unaltered email address on posts unless you want a lot a spammers and scammers contacting you, unfortunately they use automated scraping software to pick up addresses from the web. You can edit the post and change the '@' to 'at' to stop it being recognised as an email by scrapers.

--

Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
IP: 5.102.188.171
Devlin

Joined: 13/09/2020

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Lead ingot from wreck
Posted: 16/09/2020 18:43:52
Reply |  Quote
Photos uploaded in Personal Album. There are 3 ingots. The dimensions I gave are from an interim Archaeological report. Weight was not specified. Thank you.

Regards
Deva
IP: 102.118.39.136
Jump to page << < 1 2 > >>
Moore Books: Specialist Books I.A. Recordings: Mining and Industrial History DVDs Starless River - Caving Store Explore a Disused Welsh Slate Mine
Disclaimer: Mine exploring can be quite dangerous, but then again it can be alright, it all depends on the weather. Please read the proper disclaimer.
© 2005 to 2015 AditNow.co.uk
Top of Page