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Author Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
tonyfox

Joined: 18/03/2020

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 19/03/2020 00:34:04
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I’m new to mining research and have registered with the site in the hope of finding help with a current line of enquiry into the Montagu Main Colliery in the Scotswood and Denton area of western Newcastle upon Tyne. The Durham Mining Museum and Twsitelines websites contain conflicting information and don’t seem to have contact facilities where queries can be raised.

Anyway, to the specifics. Does anyone know where the Francis Pit was located? I’m testing the theory that Montagu Main Colliery was a ‘group’ name for three separate pits, connected underground – the View Pit in Scotswood (confusingly itself sometimes referred to as just ‘Montagu Main’), the Caroline Pit in Denton Burn (known locally as ‘the Monty’!), and the mysterious Francis Pit. Mysterious because while the locations of the View and Caroline Pits are known with certainty, the Francis Pit doesn’t specifically appear on any maps, O.S. or otherwise. Yet references to the name and even shaft plans exist on several sites, including DMM. Its quoted grid reference takes you to a location that is perennially open fields in maps as far back as can be found online. There are ‘Old Shafts’ nearby, but nowhere are these positively identified with actual names.

It is said that the Francis closed in 1959 along with the Caroline, the View having shut down earlier in 1934. The old Kitty’s Drift tunnel was used for movement of coal from the Caroline underground to screens at the View Pit near the River Tyne in Scotswood until final closure.

Hope someone can help! Thanks, Tony.
IP: 86.156.124.44
Morlock

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Joined: 31/07/2008

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 19/03/2020 00:56:31
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Post removed, incorrect mine position. IP: 81.151.118.124 Edited: 19/03/2020 01:13:41 by Morlock
tonyfox

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 21/03/2020 09:17:46
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Can you explain further, please, Morlock? Clearly I’ve broken a rule for which I apologise but be gentle with me, I’m a new guy! IP: 86.160.181.188
rikj

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Joined: 27/12/2008

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 21/03/2020 09:57:51
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tonyfox wrote:

Can you explain further, please, Morlock? Clearly I’ve broken a rule for which I apologise but be gentle with me, I’m a new guy!


Don't worry, pretty sure Morlock has removed info from his own post, no reference to you. (I think you can't delete your own posts). Maybe a mod will be along and remove it?

And you are right in your theory that a colliery may comprise several pits, any or all of which may move around over time as different areas and seams are worked underground.
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Morlock

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 21/03/2020 11:05:02
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rikj wrote:

tonyfox wrote:

Can you explain further, please, Morlock? Clearly I’ve broken a rule for which I apologise but be gentle with me, I’m a new guy!



You worry too much.Big Grin

I did a bit of research based on the info below and also found another 'Francis pit' marked on a map but not in the area specified. Post info was misleading so removed it from the post.

http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/m009.htm

From that page info Francis pit was about here.

https://zoom.earth/#view=54.990141,-1.6953,18z/layers=labels,crosshairs
IP: 86.130.127.123 Edited: 21/03/2020 11:52:55 by Morlock
PeteJ

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Joined: 12/05/2008
Location: Frosterley, Durham

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 21/03/2020 11:56:55
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"Guide to the Coalfields" 1953 edition, lists Maria, Isabella, Blucher and Montague Main as NCB pits. No mention of Francis. IP: 87.115.69.94
Buckhill

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 21/03/2020 17:37:06
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There were several abandonment plans of which NEIMME was named as custodian in the 1928 catalogue. These came under Denton East and named quite a few pits covered but, strangely, not Francis. There may be copies at Neville Hall but due to the refurbishment it will, virus permitting, be autumn before the collections are accessible again.

Another entry, under Denton East and Kenton West, for a plan held by the Mines Department, Ref. R. 361A, covered the same area as the others and this one does name Francis along with several from the other plans. This plan is probably now with the Coal authority as their website verifies Francis at the location shown by Morlock, albeit with no other useful data.. (BGS have the shaft section online but show the pit at the end of Deerbush to the north).

The location in the open area at Hotch Pudding bears out the sinker's log description of 330 ft above sea level and also being north side of 90 fathom dyke - that runs SW-NE between the given location and Denton Burn roundabout.
IP: 86.160.64.175 Edited: 21/03/2020 17:38:30 by Buckhill
tonyfox

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 24/03/2020 23:02:41
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Thanks, Buckhill, for your advice. Can I ask for help with another topic? What's got me stumped is that the lat/long coordinates shown in the original 17xx/18xx Borings and Sinkings records on the DMM site don't seem to tally with the geographical locations of the shafts/pits they are recorded against. How reliable are these coordinates? Does the passage of time mean that some kind of corrective adjustment is required before superimposing them on OS maps, for example? I think that may be a nonsense question, but there it is anyway.
So far I can't find an entry for the Montagu View Pit, down in Scotswood, but ironically the Francis aooears, but with strange coordinates...
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Morlock

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 24/03/2020 23:33:02
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It may be that GPS, (satnav) uses a different prime meridian to Greenwich used on OS maps?

https://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/88428/why-is-the-gps-reference-meridian-100m-to-the-east-of-the-prime-meridian
IP: 86.130.196.138
colin567

Joined: 06/06/2008
Location: Ouston

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 25/03/2020 07:55:18
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Hi Tony,
I find that some of the grid references given in the DMM are non too accurate. For example, Low Urpeth Colliery, up the road from where I live, has the correct NGR for the D pit shaft, bit gives the colliery NGR a Km to the NW in a field where there is no sign in any old maps of there ever been a shaft or any transport infrastructure, that is all at the top the hill, waggonway, coke ovens etc.
That being said, DMM is a really useful resource especially when you use it alongside the old OS maps and the Coal Authority map.
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Buckhill

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Montagu Main Colliery, Scotswood
Posted: 25/03/2020 21:47:59
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The plan R361A, which specifically refers to Francis Pit, IS held by CA (along with around another half dozen or so covering that area). It would seem that some of these cover working from the latter years of Montagu, probably in the deeper seams.

The anomalies between Lat/Long and OS grid references seem sometimes only due to some showing the OS 100m square - the prime meridian shift doesn't account for latitude differences.

The sinking logs on DMM site are taken from a late 19C NEIMME publication. Could there have been a transcription error from the original - I believe the shaft dates from c. 1750? If the shaft was no longer visible at surface when the first OS maps were produced perhaps the later log transcription estimated the location using the old working plans. From experience I know that workings may actually be tens of metres away from the plan positions, and I have seen plans where the relative positions of workings are shown differently on the plans of two (interconnected) pits under the same ownership
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