Mine exploration, photographs and mining history for mine explorers, industrial archaeologists, researchers and historians Mine explorer and mining history videos on YouTube Connect with other mine explorers on Facebook
Tip: do not include 'mine' or 'quarry', search by name e.g. 'cwmorthin', use 'Sounds like search' if unsure of spelling

Advanced Search
'Sounds like search'
Quick a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
Tip: narrow down your search by typing more than one word and selecting 'Search for all words' or 'Exact search'

Search for any word
Search for all words
Exact search
Tip: narrow down your search by typing more than one word and selecting 'Search for all words' or 'Exact search'

Search for any word
Search for all words
Exact search

Mine Exploration Forum

Author Mine capping in Cornwall.
Jose1911

Joined: 20/05/2018

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 20/05/2018 11:24:26
Reply |  Quote
Dear all.
I own some land with 3 maybe 4 mine shafts. I know who owns the mine/minerial rights. The question is,is the mine owner responsible for capping if they are fenced off or in dangerous condition?
J
IP: 81.156.127.92
DaveM

Joined: 05/05/2009
Location: Perth

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 20/05/2018 12:03:42
Reply |  Quote
opinions seem to differ, as in this case;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/6407319.stm
IP: 89.243.204.0
Chalcocite

Joined: 02/07/2017

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 20/05/2018 13:25:31
Reply |  Quote
I was involved in a mine exploration a number of years ago now in North Cornwall. After we had finished our work a hole appeared in mateys field.. We did what we could to fix it underground but the farmer was responsible for the remediation and fencing off of the nearby shaft. Although we capped the shaft as a good gesture. IP: 213.205.194.30
RAMPAGE

Avatar of RAMPAGE

Joined: 01/03/2015
Location: Everywhere

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 20/05/2018 19:26:02
Reply |  Quote
Jose1911 wrote:

Dear all.
I own some land with 3 maybe 4 mine shafts. I know who owns the mine/minerial rights. The question is,is the mine owner responsible for capping if they are fenced off or in dangerous condition?
J


I would fence them off and put "danger" signs around them, that is the limit of what you are required to do as a "reasonable precaution".

Whether it is you or the mineral owner who should do it... I am pretty sure it is the mineral owner. I would ask with HM Inspectorate of Mines (google them). They will tell you, and if it is the mineral owner they will be forced to deal with it.

--

Beneath my steely exterior beats the heart of a dashing hero
IP: 87.224.72.55
polo

Joined: 19/10/2013

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 20/05/2018 21:42:43
Reply |  Quote
Jose1911 wrote:

Dear all.
I own some land with 3 maybe 4 mine shafts. I know who owns the mine/minerial rights. The question is,is the mine owner responsible for capping if they are fenced off or in dangerous condition?
J


The answer will be found in the words "I own some land with 3 maybe 4 mine shafts" A series of legislation starting in the 1890's brought about the ability to separate surface land and mineral rights which enabled large estates to be broken up and sold whilst the mineral rights were retained by the vendor who became the "mineral owner".

Review the historic roots of title to your land to ascertain whether the mineral owner sold the liability of say the top 10 or 20 fathoms of minerals to the original surface land purchaser. It is common for the liability to have been transferred but it did not happen in every case. If the liability did transfer then it would also apply to the current surface landowner as "successors in title".
IP: 92.7.233.114
Roy Morton

Avatar of Roy Morton

Joined: 09/10/2007
Location: Redruth Cornwall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 20/05/2018 22:35:07
Reply |  Quote
In Cornwall it's pretty rare that mineral rights would be included in any sale of land or property; The manor of East Cusgarne being a notable exception.
Such rights are generally retained by the original 'Lord of the land' and the largest in Cornwall is of course The Duke of Cornwall aka prince Charles.

Can't have common oiks getting rich in Cornwall Wink


--

"You Chinese think of everything!" "But I''m not Chinese!" "Then you must have forgotten something!"
IP: 81.151.58.159
Buckhill

Joined: 08/04/2008

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 21/05/2018 00:06:29
Reply |  Quote
When inspecting disused coal entries with NCB in the '60s & '70s we worked to the then requirements of the M &Q Act which was to secure them against accidental entry - someone crossing even a simple (if properly maintained) post and wire fence being regared as doing so deliberately. By the end of the '70s we had a policy of filling and capping them - even though the legal requirement had not changed.

The presence of a fence around the shafts on your land suggests that someone has, at some time, taken some steps to prevent accidental entry. I don't think there has been any change requiring them to go further by capping. (The fencing is more than many owners do - if they did many people on this forum woud have to find a new pastime.)

If you are concerned about the condition of the present fence and its ability to prevent accidental entry to the shafts I suggest firstly contacting the mineral owner to discuss your concerns.
IP: 86.132.168.109
RAMPAGE

Avatar of RAMPAGE

Joined: 01/03/2015
Location: Everywhere

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 21/05/2018 07:46:04
Reply |  Quote
Buckhill wrote:

When inspecting disused coal entries with NCB in the '60s & '70s we worked to the then requirements of the M &Q Act which was to secure them against accidental entry - someone crossing even a simple (if properly maintained) post and wire fence being regared as doing so deliberately. By the end of the '70s we had a policy of filling and capping them - even though the legal requirement had not changed.

The presence of a fence around the shafts on your land suggests that someone has, at some time, taken some steps to prevent accidental entry. I don't think there has been any change requiring them to go further by capping. (The fencing is more than many owners do - if they did many people on this forum would have to find a new pastime.)



You're absolutely right in regards obligation under M&Q, you have to prevent accidental entry and stout fencing with warning/mineshaft signs meets that requirement. There is no need to fill/cap anything unless there are additional circumstances which might warrant it. Such as being right next to an extremely busy footpath popular with children. Morally, even if not legally, you might want to cap it in that situation. A whopping great engine shaft from a major colliery now in the middle of a housing estate is another example where, with reluctance, it might be best to chuck a few scaf-planks over it. Just so the local wildlife can retrieve their footballs without needing to borrow mums washing line and bike light.

If a person falls down the shaft and dies, their NOK, the police or HSE might attempt to prosecute. If the victim fell down the shaft because they climbed over a substantial fence and ignored the clear and obvious signs saying "Danger of Death, Deep Mine Shaft" then that's the end of their prosecution.



--

Beneath my steely exterior beats the heart of a dashing hero
IP: 87.224.72.55 Edited: 21/05/2018 07:48:12 by RAMPAGE
Karl Marx

Avatar of Karl  Marx

Joined: 11/05/2018

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 21/05/2018 12:04:35
Reply |  Quote
Coz weem in kerrnaww, basically if you dig a hole in the ground it's like hopping a fence into someone else's paddock. Similarly, if you find yourself presented with an already gaping hole in a "here's one I made earlier" fashion, it's essentially a garden gate into someone's manor.
You hear "mineral rights" thrown around quite a lot, but it's really an archaic metaphor for underground real estate. If you go down a mine it is unlawful trespass against the "mineral rights" owner.
Now, expecting the surface landowner to pay for shaft capping is really like asking the highways agency to pay for your front door if you live on a street.
There is a bit of weasel room though as to where the boundary between surface and underground land lays, and this is reflected in your full title deeds or last explicit conveyance. Look for "within", "upon" or "beneath/below" as these detail whether or not surface aggregates (sand, clay, spoil dumps, etc) are reserved from the title. Most land in the county formed part of a manorial and so if you find subtractive conveyance that relates to the relevant manorial it will detail reservations.
I think there is a statute 3ft of shite below surface which the freeholder can play with, however this has only been proved by legal precedent and not hard law. It'll allow you to lay shallow foundations but not bury your victims standing up...

Enough rambling though, the fact of the matter is that in numerous cases it has been proved that the min rights owner has had to pay for remediation work. Occupiers liability act - yes, "occupiers"; this means lease holders as well - requires surface matey to put up adequate fencing.


Refer to your solicitor. Internet forums are full of weirdie beardies (like me) when it's "awfully important & sons" signature that you need.
IP: 176.26.212.120
The Fresh Prince of Portreath

Joined: 05/08/2015

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 23/05/2018 11:26:16
Reply |  Quote
Capping capping capping capping.

We all know that you have to cap mine shafts and that means giving Pete or Daz a ring, if you ask a bit further.

If you have a shaft, you must get it capped as soon as possible and the person telling you what must be done will be specifying all sorts of civil engineered wonders including a plug beneath a cap to prevent yada yada cap blah with 3 layers of rebar. It will cost £100000

This is what happens. Witness what John Grimes Partnership did in Gunnislake with Michaels/Phillips Shaft (the paperwork is on a file over there ------>) where they had free reign and a blank chequebook. They ended up blowing an enormous chunk of money on possibly the most expensive shaft cap in the world. Engineering Firms really go full retard over capping, because in the pursuit of perfection, nothing is good enough, so you'd better put on 10 layers of rebar.

Thankfully, to stop all of this nonsense, the Coal Board published their "Treatment of abandoned shafts and adits" or whatever it's called. "The NCB shaft capping book". Later on, the EA produced "Treatment of disused mine openings". This allows mining firms and construction companies to cut out the civil engineers (which go fully over the top at every opportunity - with other people's money). Basically, there are a number of scenarios. What shafts are like. Massive, small, major loose **** over the top, collared, uncollared, within alluvium/flooded, filled, etc, etc, etc. The coal board and EA books have got a set of designs which deal with this. If you read through it all of the caps you will see pictures of make sense. It's something which can be fairly well costed out before getting the machinery out. Back in the 1980s, around the time that the EA book was published, there was quite a fuss about disused mineshafts and operation minecap (to cap them) was dreamed up. This started off using "clwyd caps" (see NCB book over there ------->) and then they (Kerrier DC along with CSM) came up with a plug design which everyone uses religiously. It's just a no brainer. Make a shape in the collar of the shaft, put in beams/boards, fill to X, make up to Y cover over. It is what can be considered a permanent solution, unlike what in 99.99% of previous cap jobs, is not applicable.

Down in kernow, we have everyone wanting to take money off your hands and sell you super duper nuke proof shaft caps... If you are out in a field, these are not required. Just fence them properly at the right distance. In this case, it might be an idea to have a geo/mining beard come around and say "there" because if you do have shit rock and the shaft has just opened up, it will keep going and may consume your fence. This would be a site visit and cost £150ish or something like that. Off the top of my head, NCB recommend 1.8m chainlink (like you see at Penberthy Crofts) with the relevant signage. This does the job.

One thing that might be worthy of consideration is whether there are other potentially problematic shafts on the site (since you already have 4). I know a good one where some morons have built a stables (which is now a bungalow - funny that!) on top of a huge winding shaft (which is not capped properly). Since they appear to have bypassed the planning process, they have also bypassed the mining tick box that would have been required.

Bear in mind the whole inconvenience of mining related things in Cornwall are not just a fuss over nothing, the potential for stuff to go down a biblical hole and fall hundreds of feet into flooded workings is occasionally there.

As Karl said above, weeeem in Kernow and down here for some reason, many people seem to think that the law does not apply to them.

I also heard a couple of other things:-

If the hole was sunk at the time of the unchanged rights owner today, they are liable for it's remediation if it opens up. The precedent was Tregothnan at Wheal Leisure. If rights have changed, the rights owner is no longer responsible. (But who is?). Also, there is money to be made by a rights owner suing someone for plugging their shaft. I gather something like this happened recently.

Clearly, rather than jumping straight for the Kerrier Plug, or NCB designs (or some superduper engineering associates job) it might be wise to contact the rights owner, just to see whether they want access retained.

Funnily enough, I looked at a shaft yesterday which had been capped in a bizarre way. This was to permit a quick return to use if required (which it most certainly won't be).

To recap.

1. Get someone in to look at the paperwork and see if there's anything on site which is an unrecognised hazard and to see where rockhead is for the placing of the fence. (There are plenty of flying fences over shaft cones)

2. Fence it.

3. Do not worry about shaft capping unless you plan to build on the site, or it is in the middle of a playground.
IP: 173.239.236.100
royfellows

Avatar of royfellows

Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 23/05/2018 11:39:30
Reply |  Quote
so a scrap car and two dead sheep not good enough for you boyo!

Laugh

--

"You are not consumers, you are the product" Google and Facebook, Masters of the Universe
IP: 92.24.18.58
polo

Joined: 19/10/2013

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 23/05/2018 21:28:09
Reply |  Quote

If the hole was sunk at the time of the unchanged rights owner today, they are liable for it's remediation if it opens up. The precedent was Tregothnan at Wheal Leisure. If rights have changed, the rights owner is no longer responsible. (But who is?). Also, there is money to be made by a rights owner suing someone for plugging their shaft. I gather something like this happened recently.

What is the relationship between Tregothnan and Wheal Leisure?
IP: 82.68.72.38
Jose1911

Joined: 20/05/2018

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 24/05/2018 13:10:30
Reply |  Quote
Hi all,
The mineral rights and mine owner has remained unchanged.
The shaft has not open but has a depression with rock head very close to the base of the depression.
j
IP: 94.197.120.212
The Fresh Prince of Portreath

Joined: 05/08/2015

View Profile
View Posts
View Personal Album
View Personal Files
View all Photos
Send Private Message
Mine capping in Cornwall.
Posted: 24/05/2018 17:15:14
Reply |  Quote
polo wrote:


If the hole was sunk at the time of the unchanged rights owner today, they are liable for it's remediation if it opens up. The precedent was Tregothnan at Wheal Leisure. If rights have changed, the rights owner is no longer responsible. (But who is?). Also, there is money to be made by a rights owner suing someone for plugging their shaft. I gather something like this happened recently.

What is the relationship between Tregothnan and Wheal Leisure?


Tregothnan (Lord Falmouth) was the mineral lord. The hole opened up (and it was a big one) and LF had to make it good (at considerable expense).

What happens if the rights change is a lot more complicated. If the rights owner is not responsible for capping the shaft (making good) the rights owner can "do" you for capping the shaft, or sterilising the workings.

It's an archaic mess and the country would do very well to nationalise the lot of it.

When I go into the record office, I either see members of whatever Tehidy Minerals is now calling itself, Treliver (a while ago) one of the other big estates other than the duchy and it really is people getting all of their chess pieces in order for when the big boys want to open up mines again.

Ahh ah ahhhhhh, not here, I want £10000000 etc, etc.

They were a cancer upon the country and the owners of their legacy are also.

Which shaft on which piece of land is it. Obviously they are not created equal. When I have 5 mins, I'll have a look
IP: 173.239.236.96
Safety LED Miners Caplamps Moore Books: Specialist Books I.A. Recordings: Mining and Industrial History DVDs Starless River - Caving Store Explore a Disused Welsh Slate Mine
Disclaimer: Mine exploring can be quite dangerous, but then again it can be alright, it all depends on the weather. Please read the proper disclaimer.
© 2005 to 2015 AditNow.co.uk
Top of Page