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Mine Exploration Forum

Author Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
dtyson

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Joined: 17/11/2008
Location: wirral

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 07/09/2017 10:26:02
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As many of you are aware (especially if you read the last CCC newsletter or look on the UKCaving forum) the Welsh Government has published a consultation paper on “Taking Forward Wales’ Sustainable Management of Natural Resources”.

This covers a wide range of topics, but includes significant proposals on access for recreation. While this will not address or change any access to mines it may help indirectly in other ways.

The document can be downloaded from:

https://consultations.gov.wales/sites/default/files/consultation_doc_files/170728-sustainable-management-natural-resources-consultation-document-en.pdf

Cambrian Caving Council have produced a 20 page formal response and a short 3 page summary which have been placed on the CCC website:

http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/

We need underground explorers to respond to consultation and to this end have placed a template letter as a word file on the CCC website:

http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/pdf/WG31881_Sep_2017/caverlettertemplate.doc

You can download the document to cut and paste and send as is or modify. The letter needs to be submitted to the WG before the end of September by email or post. Please include your postcode, this is especially important for those of your who reside in Wales - but ALL feedback is important. Wales wants to position itself a a top destination for outdoor pursuits to bring in income to sustain rural communities.

PLEASE MAKE THE EFFORT TO RESPOND AND DON'T LEAVE IT TO OTHERS!

The Cycling community have already submitted 2000+ comments, we probably cannot get to that level, but we can try!

Thank you,

Dave Tyson
[Acting CCC Secretary]
IP: 92.27.75.51
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 07/09/2017 11:15:08
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Can we modify the template letter if for whatever reason we do not agree that the Open Access concept is a good thing for the caving community? Yes! there are a few of us - Ashford Price, a great friend to Welsh Cavers and important cave owner has expressed his view publicly. Although this was written expressly for the matter of the upcoming BCA ballot, his arguments apply equally to this issue. It can be read at http://darknessbelow.co.uk/bca-ballot-a-landowners-view/

All very well pointing out that it doesn't affect mine exploration (probably), but urging mine explorers to respond to something that only affects cavers is a little bit naughty, I think, unless said explorers, like me, are also cavers, of course.

I have no problem with others strongly disagreeing with this, but can we please keep it civilised? Thanks.

IP: 209.93.26.134
royfellows

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Joined: 13/06/2007
Location: Great Wyrley near Walsall

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 07/09/2017 11:35:16
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As the template is in unsecured MS Word format and has insertion fields left blank, I rather fancy that you have the answer to your own question Peter.

There is also the the other obvious choice of use it or ignore it.

It does not affect mine exploration full stop, no "probably" about it. It is useful I feel then to remind fellow mine explorers that any CROW arguments are irrelevant to our persuit.

There are however other reasons for supporting the arguments which do relate to mines. I will go into these later as I have to go out and get shopping in.

EDITED "arguments". thinking of something else. sorry.

--

I wonder about the abandoned flip flops, but how does baling twine get into MY mine?
IP: 88.108.11.91 Edited: 07/09/2017 13:36:15 by royfellows
royfellows

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 07/09/2017 15:41:34
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To continue:
I draw attention to opening paragraph of the template letter quote: “I am responding to the Welsh Government Consultation Document WG31811, in particular to support its call for extending public rights for non-motorised recreation in the countryside, or on the coast.”

The WG has a policy of encouraging recreational access to the countryside as a promotion of a healthier lifestyle. This has already proven itself to our advantage as it was in part the springboard for negotiation that lead to the formation of Cave Access Ltd and subsequently for a permitted access to places such as Parc Lead Mine, something which in truth most of us thought we would never see.

There are some mines in the hands of third party mineral owners who are not bothered about recreational access, however the soil landowner could be hostile to people crossing his land for the purpose of entry which in the absence of direct authorisation by the mineral owner would be a trespass. I know personally of a bizarre situation whereby such a mine has an open entrance immediately onto a public right of way, however anyone attempting to leave the mine by a different entrance is likely to be accosted.

A mine can belong to a third party who owns the mine only, not the minerals. This is possible as property conveyance has complete freedom of contract. Such a party would not enjoy the ancillary rights that go with mineral ownership.

Now Peter was actually correct to raise his point (I am just not a fan of rhetoric questions) as some people may well feel that they wish to support WG policy but for different reasons to those outlined in the template letter. However I feel that not only is the WGs initiative deserving of our support, but that CCCs submission can only benefit the mine exploration community were its arguments to be adopted.
As such the CCC submission is well worth studying in its entirety, its not all about CROW.

As I said before (or meant to say), possible wider interpretations of CROW would never extend to abandoned mines, however, I do find it difficult to see a position whereby one can be against the CROW argument without being against improved access in general, which is bound to be of some benefit to us.
I am sorry if this appears to contradict what I said earlier, I was in a bit of a hurry.


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I wonder about the abandoned flip flops, but how does baling twine get into MY mine?
IP: 88.108.11.91 Edited: 07/09/2017 15:43:00 by royfellows
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 07/09/2017 15:45:43
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I have another thought - is it legitimate for CCC to lobby individuals, since as far as I know, it's members are exclusively organisations. I can see how contacting secretaries of organisations is fine, but is it not the member organisations' responsibility to lobby their own members? Should CCC effectively be going over the heads of it's members direct to mine explorers and cavers? IP: 209.93.26.134
sinker

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Joined: 13/12/2010
Location: North Wales.

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 07/09/2017 15:54:17
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Peter Burgess wrote:



Should CCC effectively be going over the heads of it's members direct to mine explorers and cavers?



Does it really matter?
People have their own views and will respond as they see fit or will back their individual Club's stance if either they or the Club feel strongly enough either way?
Most people I know will respond depending on whether or not they want to see more recreational visitors coming to the area, rather than whether or not they agree with the general principle.




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Ah, well, now, you see.... IP: 82.132.218.91
Peter Burgess

Joined: 01/07/2008
Location: Merstham. Or is it Godstone ...... ?

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 07/09/2017 15:56:19
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Does it matter? I don't know - that's why I asked. I can imagine some clubs might not like it. IP: 209.93.26.134
royfellows

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 07/09/2017 16:04:16
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Just a quick point, this is also relevant to the current BCA group votes discussion on UKC.

A BCA group member or CCC member is not necessarily a membership organisation. CMT falls into this category.

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I wonder about the abandoned flip flops, but how does baling twine get into MY mine?
IP: 88.108.11.91
NewStuff

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Joined: 26/07/2010
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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 07/09/2017 17:24:50
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I know *very* few people that don't cross from mine exploring to caving. The vast majority of us do both, although have a preference for one or the other.

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Searching for the ever elusive Underground Titty Bar. DDDWH CC
IP: 88.97.32.83
dtyson

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 07/09/2017 20:31:23
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Just a quick note, the email address in the template was incorrect - I am getting a revised version put up shortly.

The actual address is naturalresourcemanagement@wales.gsi.gov.uk, there is no 's' after 'resource'.

Sorry for the error,

Dave
IP: 92.27.75.51
The Fresh Prince of Portreath

Joined: 05/08/2015

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 08/09/2017 00:42:24
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Isn't it crazy that a particular species of monkey, who are on this planet for a finite time, have come up with this much bull$hit?

It really is utterly ridiculous.
IP: 196.52.10.18
Peter Burgess

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Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation
Posted: 08/09/2017 11:33:19
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The Fresh Prince of Portreath wrote:

Isn't it crazy that a particular species of monkey, who are on this planet for a finite time, have come up with this much bull$hit?

It really is utterly ridiculous.
An interesting philosophical point there. As one of said species, you need to remember you are included in the problem alongside the people you criticise. Big Grin
IP: 209.93.26.134
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