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JMB Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Lochaber View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 20/04/2012 13:55:46 Reply | Quote On the BBC website 19 April 2012 Last updated at 12:21 Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17769365 http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/geothermal/heatEnergyGlasgow.html http://goo.gl/YlYMW http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/geothermal/expertiseHeatEnergyGlasgow.h tml http://goo.gl/rH8Nb MB -- |
Morlock Joined: 31/07/2008 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 20/04/2012 14:11:15 Reply | Quote I wonder what the power source for the heat pumps will be.  Sounds a bit like the electric car/windmill scam. 
IP: 86.23.13.44
Edited: 20/04/2012 14:13:11 by Morlock
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Brakeman Joined: 10/10/2007 Location: Cheshire View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 20/04/2012 16:46:33 Reply | Quote Non of the links provide any info on what the water temperature is in these mines. Most mine water I have encountered is very cold, apart from a couple of places in Derbyshire. -- The management thanks you for your co operation. IP: 86.139.164.93 |
inbye Joined: 06/07/2008 Location: Huddersfield View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 20/04/2012 17:01:08 Reply | Quote We're OK down in England. We haven't finished the free north sea gas, we were promised in the 60's, yet...  -- Regards, John... 'Folk from Huddersfield think Sex is what coal gets delivered in...' IP: 86.29.236.152 |
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Morlock Joined: 31/07/2008 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 20/04/2012 17:40:01 Reply | Quote Brakeman wrote: Non of the links provide any info on what the water temperature is in these mines. Most mine water I have encountered is very cold, apart from a couple of places in Derbyshire. Temperature not too important, it's all about the quantity of heat that can be extracted from a large thermal storage medium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_capacity Heat pump. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump So not the Old Faithful Geyser sort of thermal set up.
IP: 86.27.26.224
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ChrisJC Joined: 13/10/2007 Location: Northants View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 20/04/2012 17:42:53 Reply | Quote Brakeman wrote: Non of the links provide any info on what the water temperature is in these mines. Most mine water I have encountered is very cold, apart from a couple of places in Derbyshire. I'm sure it is cold, about 8 degrees probably. But that doesn't matter. A heat pump will make the water colder by pumping the heat to a different medium which will get hot. But the colder water will draw heat from the earth, and thus not freeze up. The gain is about 4:1, so 1kW of electrical energy into a heat pump gives you about 4kW of heat. Or a bill which is 25% of what it used to be. Sounds like a no-brainer to me..... Chris. IP: 86.171.48.20 |
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Morlock Joined: 31/07/2008 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 20/04/2012 18:09:39 Reply | Quote ChrisJC wrote: The gain is about 4:1, so 1kW of electrical energy into a heat pump gives you about 4kW of heat. Or a bill which is 25% of what it used to be. Sounds like a no-brainer to me..... Chris. It always appears that way until one adds the construction, maintenance and administrative/investment return costs. The only reason it would be considered is as a part of yet another subsidised 'green fiddle'.  Feel much better now the meds kicked in. 
IP: 82.26.220.21
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ChrisJC Joined: 13/10/2007 Location: Northants View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 21/04/2012 08:26:38 Reply | Quote The monetary aspect doesn't matter (provided your goal is to 'save the planet'). Provided that overall the scheme is a net reduction in resource usage, that's good. Proof of that however is always hard to come by. Chris. IP: 86.171.48.20 |
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Morlock Joined: 31/07/2008 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 21/04/2012 16:01:56 Reply | Quote ChrisJC wrote: The monetary aspect doesn't matter (provided your goal is to 'save the planet'). Provided that overall the scheme is a net reduction in resource usage, that's good. Proof of that however is always hard to come by. Chris. Yes, proof is hard to come by but truth is even scarcer when analysing green issues. The planet can be saved quite cheaply at the minor cost of ones conscience, not an area I will expand further. IP: 82.26.116.83 |
Roy Morton Joined: 09/10/2007 Location: Redruth Cornwall View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 21/04/2012 22:25:12 Reply | Quote Morlock wrote: I wonder what the power source for the heat pumps will be. Sounds a bit like the electric car/windmill scam. No scam at all. The old Mount Wellington mine site here in Cornwall heats its workshops and its offices with ground-source heat from the water in the mineshaft, with startlingly good efficiency. Mind you, the company, Kensa, manufacture heatpumps and ground-source systems. For only a few Watts of power input to run the circulation pump and the heat exchanger - sourced from solar panels - the whole lot racks up as 'Carbon neutral' (ambiguous term) and that's good for the wallet in the end. Check out Kensa's site - http://kensaengineering.com/ Loads of info and videos on this site....plenty of food for thought. -- 'Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear' IP: 86.144.210.159 Edited: 21/04/2012 22:47:17 by Roy Morton |
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Morlock Joined: 31/07/2008 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 22/04/2012 00:54:54 Reply | Quote Roy Morton wrote: No scam at all. The old Mount Wellington mine site here in Cornwall heats its workshops and its offices with ground-source heat from the water in the mineshaft, with startlingly good efficiency. Mind you, the company, Kensa, manufacture heatpumps and ground-source systems. For only a few Watts of power input to run the circulation pump and the heat exchanger - sourced from solar panels - the whole lot racks up as 'Carbon neutral' (ambiguous term) and that's good for the wallet in the end. Check out Kensa's site - http://kensaengineering.com/ Loads of info and videos on this site....plenty of food for thought. Mount Wellington seems a good set up as the solar component makes a big difference, would be interested to see all the costs and any subsidy input though. Glasgow will be a different ball game and a net loss to the taxpayer, also although I can appreciate the apparent 'Green' gains it all seems pointless when other industrial countries do not exhibit the same commitment to saving the planet. UK global warming input is insignificant if one believes the suspect figures. So, in summing up, let's dig our coal and burn it for starters.
IP: 82.25.228.47
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Willy Eckerslyke Joined: 03/11/2011 Location: Anglesey View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 23/04/2012 10:29:39 Reply | Quote Roy Morton wrote: No scam at all. The old Mount Wellington mine site here in Cornwall heats its workshops and its offices with ground-source heat from the water in the mineshaft, with startlingly good efficiency. You don't always need to go underground though. The National Trust are looking into heating Plas Newydd on Anglesey using a seawater from the Menai Strait in a similar way. -- www.pixaerial.co.uk IP: 147.143.162.104 |
stuey Joined: 15/08/2007 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 23/04/2012 13:35:14 Reply | Quote Willy Eckerslyke wrote: Roy Morton wrote: No scam at all. The old Mount Wellington mine site here in Cornwall heats its workshops and its offices with ground-source heat from the water in the mineshaft, with startlingly good efficiency. You don't always need to go underground though. The National Trust are looking into heating Plas Newydd on Anglesey using a seawater from the Menai Strait in a similar way. On the scam front, I drove past Chivvy and Carland cross wind farms yesterday. Not an atom of air moving, stationary anemometer and stationary smaller wind turbines and the big ones were all in full swing.... As I've said before, it's all a conspiracy thought up by surfers who have infiltrated these forward thinking businesses. "Hey Brad, how come it's always flat and onshore here maaaaaannnn?" "Well dude, I've had this idea maaaan, everyone's on the green bandwagon and I reckon it can sort us out". "What we need is a wavehub and a couple of wind turbines. We can tell everyone that it's generating electricity for our low carbon footprint sustainable future and when they're all watching Eastenders, we'll switch the surf on and the offshore wind maaaaaan" I didn't drive past Porthtowan, but if I had done, I wonder if I would have seen headhigh tubing surf..... Like the RDA's and the EU, anything "green" is often surrounded by people who have the "If you disagree with us, you're as bad as Hitler" course of argument and their calculations/workings/assumptions are often a bit suspect to say the least. Ground Source Heat Pumps make sense, the maths is clear and adds up correctly. I would doubt the feasibility of it....anything "communal" needs a big body of people feasting off it and a huge gravytrain of consultants and people celebrating diversity around it, etc, etc. This all sounds far too simple to me, ergo it will never happen :D To recap:- When you see a windfarm in full chat on a still day, just remember that there are surfers out there enjoying nuclear powered, perfect surf! IP: 92.29.171.174 Edited: 23/04/2012 13:39:38 by stuey |
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Roy Morton Joined: 09/10/2007 Location: Redruth Cornwall View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 23/04/2012 23:49:33 Reply | Quote Rotating without wind?.... Sounds like a diode gone short circuit in the grid feed -- 'Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear' IP: 86.176.59.9 |
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Trewillan Joined: 21/02/2012 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 24/04/2012 09:25:44 Reply | Quote Or are wind turbines actually motor-driven, to use up surplus nuclear-generated electricity imported from France? You could be on to something! IP: 2.97.5.133 |
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stuey Joined: 15/08/2007 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 24/04/2012 12:44:29 Reply | Quote I'm absolutely certain they are being driven, because:- I have observed an anemometer (with less friction) stationary right by the turbines, a smaller wind turbine nearby not rotating even a tiny amount. (2 of these). I was so incensed by this blatant deceit that I drove right up to Carland cross and let off a smoke flare (which I have a number of) and the smoke didn't blow away. I gather when I have aired this on the interwebz, several things:- They are spun up and positioned to face the forthcoming wind (well, this is clearly not necessary in the middle of a huge high pressure). If they stop for any length of time, the bearings/shafts get flat spots. (They do stop them sometimes, so this argument has a flaw). If they stop them for a time, there is condensation in the gearboxes, which forms corrosive acids. (cheaper to fit a heater, eh?). Anyway, I have come to a conclusion which I'd say is valid, because the results are repeatable enough by anyone with any political viewpoint on the matter. They are under power often, when there is no wind. I'd use the words ferking and scam in my own descriptive conclusion of the phenomena. I recently acquired a degree level text on renewable energy and there was a whole section on wind turbines. (I try and avoid headless dogma where possible) and sadly, there were no worked, or even rough examples to inform my hypothesis that they are actually inefficient, pointless things. I would appreciate anyone pointing me in the direction of some worked maths from wind mass flow to torque at the shaft. I can probably manage the rest myself. IP: 92.29.171.174 |
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Morlock Joined: 31/07/2008 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 24/04/2012 13:39:24 Reply | Quote I can remember having some discussion with my youngest son about start-up input for wind farms when he was studying for some 'green gobbledygook' qualification. Must admit I was amazed as previously assumed wind blows, turbine turns but, from memory, all sorts of lub oil heaters and priming pumps have to be kept on auto. Will enquire if he's still got his notes. IP: 82.26.202.158 |
AR Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: Knot far from Knotlow in the middle of the Peak District View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 24/04/2012 13:46:26 Reply | Quote The John Muir trust did some research a while back challenging the efficiency/generation capability of wind turbines, I'm not sure whether it would have what you're after but it's online here: http://www.jmt.org/wind-analysis-report.asp -- I am currently out of the office on leave and travelling through time but will respond to your message when I return last week. IP: 194.159.145.70 |
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stuey Joined: 15/08/2007 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 24/04/2012 14:48:45 Reply | Quote Cheers Chaps. I'm sure they aren't exempt from the laws of thermodynamics and it often baffles me how they can abstract very much energy at all, given the friction, heating, etc, etc. When you consider the torque/power curve which is likely to be produced, a lot of the time they cannot be operating at peak output. With anything green you've got to look beyond the lack of ties, brown shoes and volkswagens to see the maths. IP: 92.29.171.174 |
Roger the Cat Joined: 12/11/2007 Location: Gloucestershire View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Abandoned Glasgow mines could provide 40% of city heat
Posted: 24/04/2012 16:27:42 Reply | Quote Many Thanks AR - I will have a good read later but it seems to confirm to me as it does to Stuey, that wind turbine technology is really a non-starter. They are being pushed very hard in the Stroud area where I live and one of the largest agencies for wind turbine design is based here. The evangelical zeal of these people make you baulk, even before rationally deciding if it is a viable proposition. I believe that that many of these folk are not merely anti-carbon energy but actually anti-energy, as an artificially created energy deficit would bring about the new age they so evidently seek. I have always felt that there is a section within the Green Movement that are building hopes of a 28-days later scenario where we will all start afresh in a pleasant green wonderland after some great calamity. Whew! Rant over. Step off soapbox….. IP: 212.139.242.180 |
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