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| Author | Fake Petzl gear warning |
AR Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: Knot far from Knotlow in the middle of the Peak District View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 12/02/2011 08:24:19 Reply | Quote Petzl have put a warning out about some faked gear, specifically, ascenders, krabs and pulleys [link] That photo of the bent croll is particularly scary, so it looks like for the time being anyone wanting to buy this stuff should avoid fleabay/overseas websites offering cut-price petzl kit and stick to the known and trusted sellers. -- I sold my soul to Satan, but he brought it back and demanded a refund.... IP: 86.157.122.101 |
Strangely Brown Joined: 28/01/2009 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 12/02/2011 15:00:46 Reply | Quote Possibly a very timely warning I was watching this croll on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280626393596 Because of the warning I had a look at the other crap they had for sale, mostly junk and have become suspisious. I'll be passing on the details to ebay and Petzl. Edit:Just noticed it's spelt Pretzl too! -- Finding it easier to navigate round a mine than a web site. IP: 88.96.57.38 Edited: 12/02/2011 15:03:17 by Strangely Brown |
stuey Joined: 15/08/2007 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 12/02/2011 20:36:58 Reply | Quote Here's a stop I found online:- http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/215004184/Descender.html You will note that it's unbranded. A while ago, I ventured to Guangzhou to have a look at some "stuff" to import. I wasn't specifically looking for SRT gear, or lighting, but I found a fair amount of stuff. Oddly enough, but unsurprisingly, I found virtually everything you see in UK shops, Marks and Spencer, etc, etc, etc. They are all at it. It also costs nothing. I had a lot of work to do and didn't waste time speaking to the person behind the display, but I found what appeared to be a stall selling unbranded Petzl products. I have no idea what they were called, I'm pretty sure they weren't the company I've linked to above. I trust my memory and judgement enough to say that I found the place which makes Petzl stuff and were selling versions with the branding removed. It would be pretty simple, you take out the insert and replace. I'm pretty familiar with plastics tooling as I have worked with it and had various tooling made myself. If you were going to copy an item, you would cut various corners, particularly with the detail of the mouldings. The stall I visited were exactly the same. They looked the same, the anodising was exactly the right hue, the handle moulding was exactly the same with the injection "pips" in the right place, the bobbins were exactly the same, the same machining, the same casting, the same nuts. Perfect. Some of the other stuff was obviously unbranded as well. Now, when someone comes out with a bent Petzl croll and says "beware of knock offs", I call bullsh!t. I totally understand people getting stuff made in china. It costs nothing and when you have seen the quality of the machining/manufacture/tooling, you would be stupid to waste your money on overpriced European stuff. The mark up is huge and they can do any material, any CE mark, any hurdle to get your money. It's nuts. So, I had a look at this. I looked at bringing in a few, as they cost a lot less than half the UK price, in dollars including shipping. This for eBay is a good rule of thumb. I like Petzl, all of my kit is Petzl and I wouldn't use anything else, as I am a Petzlpremiumproduct worshipper, it's the best and I wouldn't use anything else....like you lot. However, things are getting more expensive and I've noticed some gear appearing on ebay. There are some nice ascenders which are non-petzl and they seem pretty competitive. I've seen a load of this stuff in the flesh and it really is quite good. It has all the stamps and quality that you'd expect. Knowing materials, I'm pretty sure you could swing a car off most of it. Another thing I looked at was headlamps. As much as I love my Oldham derived thing and fully buy into British Classics, the mining lamps were good as well. They also cost nothing. Ahhh, but it's Chinese lego ****, I hear you cry. It will break, fall to bits, burn out, let you down, potentially kill you. They won't. They are pretty good and if you look carefully, or if you understood what Stuey - Cornwall actually meant, you might trace the manufacture of your favourite product to China. They would be silly not to take advantage of the quality and cost. What the article seems to state is that there are branded versions of Petzl products out there, knock offs which will kill you. This coincides with unbranded "petzl" stuff (like stops ) being available online. Whilst with a lot of this stuff, it doesn't make sense market-wise to import a load of it, but there is another way. There are a lot of e-commerce/eBay sellers in Hong Kong punting out locally sourced stuff individually. Shipping is coming down and with the bonkers mark up, you can actually get a cheaper deal by shipping stuff individually straight from Hong Kong. I wonder what the deal is here. I smell a big rat and I don't believe the article. I have seen the "unbranded" items which to me are from the same tooling and stock and the quality is bang on. Why would these people need to make some stuff out of inferior material, stamp it "Petzl" and then splurge it out all over the interweb? It's not like there is a massive market for this stuff. The sorts of places who make this stuff do not just do petzl gear, they do all sorts, they are huge scale. I just don't buy it. I cynically might suggest that Petzl are scaremongering because there is a genuine quality threat to their domination of the European marketplace. I bet that if someone independent looked at that bent Croll, it would be chemically the same as one of their premium priced items. I'd bet £10 that was the case. Or, the misuse which led to that Croll being bent would bend a pukka one. Look at Petzl. It's a trademark and they can't do a thing about anyone selling items without the trademark. They do not have patents or any design rights over a lot of items, like ascenders and bobbin descenders. They have a right to get angry about people not distributing these things, but I don't think that's the problem here. Awareness of more competitively priced products which do the job is pervading people, including cavers. We are waking up to the fact it's not lego. They are also. I don't believe this story. I think it's scaremongering and I think that item is the same as all the others. They are frightened and their business plan is not looking like capturing more of the market. Times are a changing. ....anyway, that's my opinion 
IP: 81.174.199.35
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NewStuff Joined: 26/07/2010 Location: NE Wales View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 12/02/2011 21:07:03 Reply | Quote Regardless of the quality, it's not just Petzl having "issues" with stuff being branded as their products... Here's a version of my preferred descender. Having compared mine to the screen, I would be fairly confident I would have great difficulty telling any difference. The Unit price is an eye-opener too... [link] -- In your mines, Taking your pictures... IP: 86.150.118.66 |
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stuey Joined: 15/08/2007 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 12/02/2011 21:16:33 Reply | Quote I am disappointed no-one has found a half decent "J" rack. IP: 81.174.199.35 |
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NewStuff Joined: 26/07/2010 Location: NE Wales View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 12/02/2011 21:22:24 Reply | Quote stuey wrote: I am disappointed no-one has found a half decent "J" rack. Not quite the same... but here you go. [link] -- In your mines, Taking your pictures... IP: 86.150.118.66 |
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stuey Joined: 15/08/2007 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 12/02/2011 21:46:10 Reply | Quote The reason I use a rack is that my favourite rope is now an old stick. An anthron would probably be better than a bowline for anchoring it to something! IP: 81.174.199.35 |
Vanoord Joined: 28/11/2005 Location: North Wales View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 13/02/2011 15:20:42 Reply | Quote The Chinese make some good stuff and some bad stuff. Without entirely wishing to promote something I sell, I'd cite Fenix as an example of how much Chinese manufacturing has come on in the last decade - they're excellent products with extremely good reliability. In comparison, we've now given up selling high-end Silva headlamps due to quality issues. One of those brands is made in China and is a Chinese brand; the other a European brand made in China - so in reality there should be little between them. Indeed, common sense should suggest that the European brand would ensure its quality control is better, but that doesn't seem to be the case. But... I am not convinced by Chinese replicas of tried and tested products. There is sometimes a bit of subtlety required in the manufacturing process that may not have been replicated when the knock-off was reverse-engineered. That said, the test results of the counterfeit Petzl stuff is interesting - there's quite a bit of difference in the failure strengths and whilst they're both beyond the bounds of expected loadings, I suspect I'd be a lot happier to trust myself to something genuine, at the very least because I know it's been batch tested. -- Filling space until a new signature comes along... IP: 81.134.74.176 |
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stuey Joined: 15/08/2007 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 13/02/2011 15:33:31 Reply | Quote As I've said on the other thread. I'd be prepared to bet that Petzl are scaremongering and do not actually have their hands on an inferior product with their branding on. The market is changing and here is their attempt to persuade the public to stay put. Occam's razor old chap. It is preposterous to suggest that somewhere, some factory has tooled up to produce rip-offs made of inferior material. Utterly nuts. They could pretty much tool up and make a competing, quality item easily, like so many do. Am I totally nuts, or do you agree? Come on! IP: 87.112.99.191 |
RJV Joined: 16/03/2008 Location: Cleveland View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 13/02/2011 16:12:42 Reply | Quote The cost of two Petzl jammers amounts to about seventy quid. They'll last you 10 years plus and stop you from plummeting to earth when dangling 50m above the floor on a bit of rope thinner than your little finger which seems to suggest a certain value for money. As Petzl have spent time and money in development, testing and obtaining CE marks etc why shouldn't they get some reward for it? I'd rather give them my cash than some dodgy bunch of chancers who are solely out to profit from the endeavours of others without bothering to do the legwork themselves. -- Rich IP: 82.4.12.54 Edited: 13/02/2011 16:13:45 by RJV |
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Vanoord Joined: 28/11/2005 Location: North Wales View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 13/02/2011 16:16:28 Reply | Quote You're possibly partially nuts!  I think it highly likely that someone is China has been knocking off Petzl gear - witness the production of an almost exact replica of the Chevvy Matiz by one of the Chinese car manufacturers as an example of what they're capable of! Reverse engineering is very common and things like the Petzl gear are quite expensive for the size they are / the ease with which they can be manufactured (R&D/marketing/overheads costs presumably cause this), so they're going to be attractive to a bloke with a good foundry. -- Filling space until a new signature comes along... IP: 81.134.74.176 |
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stuey Joined: 15/08/2007 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 13/02/2011 18:18:50 Reply | Quote The market is virtually nil really. They can't get through that much stuff, noting well the fact that after so and so years, you're meant to buy new. With the expense of tooling up (even though tooling is about 1/3 of the price of Euro tooling) it seems a pointless exercise to go to all that trouble to knock out some inferior copies. The same moulding, pressing, machining has to be done to all of these parts. I really can't see anyone with any sense trying to rip off a few skinflints like myself. Nearly everyone who uses this stuff wouldn't buy anything without the CE mark, let alone something with no marks. A Matiz is different, people buy a lot of cars and there are a hell of a lot of Chinese! It's a different ball game. Here's an example for you. I've had some tooling made up for some plastic items I get through a lot of. It has removable inserts so you can put the food grade nonsense on, then swap the "PP" to "PE" or whatever plastic you're using. They have our logo removable so that if we finish using the tooling. (About £12k worth) it can be easily adapted for whoever else. We currently use some chaps in Devon to do the injection moulding and really, what is to say that he won't swap the various bits over and use our tooling to sell the stuff somewhere else? After all, if his machine is dormant and the moulding is sat there and he's bored, he may as well knock a few out and make a few quid. I find it highly unlikely that the chap would go to all the trouble of getting some poor grade ally and putting that in the press. After all, if you used the wrong thickness, it wouldn't bend right and you'd have to adjust the tooling. I'm very cynical after seeing so much unbranded stuff and thinking "we are all being ripped off". You wouldn't believe it. There are so many premium products which have been branded and then a massive price hike put on. The materials are much of a muchness and if you want whatever testing, whatever stamping, they'll just whack it in the machine and churn it out. Let's face it, the stuff is very much over-engineered. You can hang a car off most of the stuff and even though it's rated to so-and-so Kg, material wise, it's up to a lot more. I saw a lot of different stuff. Really decent flashlights which retail for £100's to crap that was utter rubbish. We are all familiar with crap headlamps and those carabiner keyrings, however the stuff which is made for rope access is very well made. It is odd without the stamps as the stamps give a visual chunkiness to the item. It's like rope. I specifically went over to look at rope and what was available. Again, I saw some crap, some good stuff and some very very cheap stuff which appeared identical to branded, tested, all singing, all dancing stuff that you MUST REPLACE after 4 years. The prices were comedy. Shipping was not, certification was not a problem and you could spec whatever you liked colour wise or whatever. There is a German bloke banging out rope somewhere on the interweb and I don't think he does to well. Again, all cavers want to use Edelreid or similar and anything chinese will kill you as it's a con. The mark up is huge and since we insist on buying branded stuff, even more huge. The brand owners are laughing all the way to the bank. Now they are pi$$ed off that the slopes want a share of the profit. If you are in the business of selling an item with a high £:Volume ratio, be very afraid. Thankfully/Sadly, depending on how you look at it, my plastic items do not merit shipping from China. You can't get enough of them in a container. I think the chance of Mr Petzl pooping himself at the state of affairs and making a fuss about a bent croll is more likely than some Chinaman tooling up and running some inferior material, whilst going to all the trouble of getting the machining/tooling made perfectly. Pull the other one indeed! Have I repeated myself enough!?!?!?!?!! IP: 87.112.99.191 |
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jagman Joined: 11/03/2007 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 13/02/2011 19:40:20 Reply | Quote stuey wrote: I think the chance of Mr Petzl pooping himself at the state of affairs and making a fuss about a bent croll is more likely than some Chinaman tooling up and running some inferior material, whilst going to all the trouble of getting the machining/tooling made perfectly. Pull the other one indeed! Have I repeated myself enough!?!?!?!?!! Not enough to convince me I'm afraid. IP: 94.10.151.237 |
SimonRL Joined: 27/11/2005 Location: North Wales View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 13/02/2011 22:25:38 Reply | Quote I'd rather use a genuine Croll than a fake Croll any day of the week. I'd use a clone of a Croll if it didn't claim to be a Croll and came from a reputable manufacture and had the appropriate marks on it. The Chinese make some fantastic kit. But they will also make some very dubious kit. On the subject of lamps, I agree there are some very good Chinese manufactured-lamps. But at the same time there are some alarming ones. I imported 5 different makes of Chinese mining lamps about a year ago. The quality varied wildly. And I wouldn't trust anything that claimed to be something it wasn't. -- Keep Calm And Carry On IP: 95.148.45.6 Edited: 13/02/2011 22:26:02 by SimonRL |
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Vanoord Joined: 28/11/2005 Location: North Wales View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 13/02/2011 22:26:54 Reply | Quote Quite possible that a factory in the far east knocking something out turns to knocking the same thing out but unbranded - except I suspect that not much Petzl gear is made in China (some is made none too far from here in north Wales, as happens...). The thing that we don't appreciate is how massive the Chinese market is - I guess that the Stop clone and the ascenders will find all sorts of homes with rope access, window cleaners, tree surgeons and all sorts of other things. -- Filling space until a new signature comes along... IP: 86.133.203.214 |
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SimonRL Joined: 27/11/2005 Location: North Wales View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 13/02/2011 22:30:03 Reply | Quote Vanoord wrote: Quite possible that a factory in the far east knocking something out turns to knocking the same thing out but unbranded - except I suspect that not much Petzl gear is made in China (some is made none too far from here in north Wales, as happens...). It is indeed! -- Keep Calm And Carry On IP: 95.148.45.6 |
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stuey Joined: 15/08/2007 View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 13/02/2011 23:59:13 Reply | Quote Interesting one to get to the bottom of. IP: 87.112.93.126 |
blackshiver Joined: 08/06/2008 Location: Teesside View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 15/02/2011 23:07:57 Reply | Quote Being a Yorkshireman I'm all for value for money. But I have already said my piece regarding second hand sit harnesses elsewhere and will reiterate with my thoughts on "cheap" or copy kit. I would happily pay for a chinese version of a Meander caving suit that saves me 50 quid. If it falls apart all that's going to happen is I get a wet for a few trips and never go near the brand again. However, I just paid full price for a proper Meander because I know it will last me ten years like the last one did. A tenner a year for something hard wearing and easily fixable is good value even if the 100 quid purchase price is certainly not "cheap". However, even I would not consider trying to save money by considering a cheap copy ascender or stop. The simple reasons - its difficult complaining when you are a steaming pile of giblets at the bottom of a shaft and Petzl stuff lasts for ages anyway (its not cheap but it represents excellent value over the life of the product). IP: 82.10.241.121 |
MossSphere Joined: 01/04/2009 Location: West Mids View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 16/02/2011 23:49:00 Reply | Quote It all depends what price you put on your life ... is saving a few quid worth the risk? You get good mileage out of Petzl products, spread the cost over their lifetime and it probably doesn't even equate to the cost of a pint of beer a month! -- Moz. IP: 95.150.181.176 |
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Vanoord Joined: 28/11/2005 Location: North Wales View Profile View Posts View Personal Album View Personal Files View all Photos Send Private Message |
Fake Petzl gear warning
Posted: 17/02/2011 09:21:45 Reply | Quote stuey wrote: Interesting one to get to the bottom of. Odds are that you'd get to the bottom quicker with a Chinese copy  -- Filling space until a new signature comes along... IP: 81.134.74.176 |
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